Doing Penance

[Valerie]

Valerie seems to be supporting Eastern Orthodoxy, although to my knowledge she is not Eastern Orthodox nor attends at one. (Please correct me if I am wrong). Eastern Orthodoxy is not Anabaptism, and Pentecostalism is not Anabaptism either.

Correct- we are presently attending a 'non-denomination' church as a safe place- we are suffering from overexposure to too many branches of Christianity where we find good things in all yet all of them are opposed to one another (well Orthodox at least will say each denomination has a 'slice of the pie' which makes sense to me). I doubt we will return to Pentecost even though I recognize they do have a lot of faith, gifts of the Spirit and I witnessed things that seemed like the early Church in many ways- (tongues, prophecies, words of knowledge, miracles, healings)- the Charismatic movement seems to embrace a group of people, an Apostolic Movement & Prophetic Movement, etc- that we were not comfortable with- since we continually pray for discernment, our spirits were troubled and we had to leave. Plus I had embraced some of Anabaptism which is polar opposite of their practices-

I only entered this topic because as I read a section in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs- there was a reference to Church writers who eluded to this- so it goes waaaaay back in Church history- maybe not exactly the way Catholics practice but there is at least references to it under the section of 'church discipline'
Not to bunny trail but to clarify since you were not sure Josh

[Sudsy]

Question - suppose a member is not following a rule, such as one regarding dress (i.e. a man wearing short pants) could they be excommunicated not perhaps because of wearing short pants but on the basis that they were not submitting to the church ?

I think the response to such a situation would vary greatly by group. I expect there are some churches that would excommunicate "because of wearing short pants." I have heard of some churches being so rule-oriented that they feel they can't discipline a member unless he is breaking one of the "church rules." I'm not personally acquainted with any such congregations, but I'm not ready to dispute their existence. However, most conservative Anabaptists would consider such an approach unhealthy.
Then there would be the approach you asked about, namely excommunication based on "lack of submission" when rules are breached. I've had more exposure to such feelings being expressed. I think many or most CAs would also consider this to be an unhealthy approach as well if this is all the further the concern extended.
In thinking about such situations, keep in mind that many of us conservative Mennonites view the practical guidelines of our various churches not as restrictions so much as corporately developed guidelines to help us better serve our Lord and to help us in living righteous Godly lives. We believe in working out our salvation together as a church, and that we need to help one another along the way. We place a high value on making decisions and developing conviction as a group, in addition to at a personal level. If our church has established a minimum expectation of what constitutes modest apparel, whether in writing or not, it is likely because the church believes that at some point beyond that guideline would be a violation of Biblical command or principle. If a member chooses to violate a standard that we've set for our own spiritual good, our concerns would include that (a) he is blind to the spiritual danger involved, and that (b) he cares more about his own wishes and desires than about the spiritual good of himself and the church.
When an erring member becomes argumentative, refusing to accept or seriously consider the concerns that are raised by the ministry and others regarding his actions, then the "lack of submission" may come into play, the issues run a lot deeper than that.

Thanks Ken, you explained the conservative Mennonite intent of their orthopraxy quite well. Although I think protecting from sinning in this way has it drawbacks, I appreciate the desire expressed to help one another to best follow the Lord. And just as believing all CMs are legalists is just as wrong as believing all Evangelicals promote 'easy-beliefism'. We do need to be careful of generalizations.

I have enjoyed learning more about penance on this thread from others and especially from that debate I found on youtube and heard the RC explanation given on forgiveness. Interesting how the concept of works proves our faith is a living faith (a belief all of us would likely agree on) and how that concept of works regarding penance was attached by RCs to forgiveness. And yet we know Jesus said we would be forgiven if we forgive other's of their trespasses which could be considered a work to receive forgiveness, couldn't it ?

[Bootstrap]

we are suffering from overexposure to too many branches of Christianity where we find good things in all yet all of them are opposed to one another

Yes, all of Christianity is suffering from that.

I only entered this topic because as I read a section in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs- there was a reference to Church writers who eluded to this- so it goes waaaaay back in Church history- maybe not exactly the way Catholics practice but there is at least references to it under the section of 'church discipline'

To me, the basic difference is this. In the Catholic Church, the priest, as the representative of "the Church" (capitals theirs), is empowered to be God's minister in forgiving the sin of the penitent, and this generally involves asking the penitent to "do penance" in some symbolic form. It might often be something like praying one Our Father and ten Hail Marys. I don't know how far back that goes in church history, I have not researched it. I don't see that in the Bible. They do believe in repentance and good fruit, and they know that the sacrament of penance is not a substitute for that, but they also have quite a few members who are not deeply committed to the faith, and they generally limit penance to what someone can do fairly easily.

In a Mennonite church, it's all about the brethren, not the priest. Repentance is primarily about repenting of the sin and showing good fruit. Many MC-USA churches have now become the same kind of "big tent" churches as Catholic churches, but most Mennonite churches involve closer brotherhood and taking our faith walk quite seriously together. Repentance and walking in righteousness are part of our "one-anothering". We don't have priests. Even the minister is - at least in theory - just one of the brethren. We don't have a sacrament of penance or symbolic prayers used for penance. Unfortunately, I think that many MC-USA churches no longer have an effective framework for dealing with personal sin and discipling in righteousness. Some do. And I think all churches need to take a serious look at which sins and what kinds of righteousness are central to the Bible. But I can't imagine that a sacrament of penance along Catholic lines would be part of that according to our understanding of what the Bible teaches.

[Josh]

I try to find unity in my local brotherhood first and then we try to find unity with other churches who want to find unity with us.

Christianity across the globe as a whole is too big of a problem for Josh to fix. That's why we trust the good shepherd of the sheep.

One start, though, is for independent churches to quit catering to trying to snatch up people who are already Christian. Parkside is notorious for proselytising us Mennonites, since we make good reliable attenders and give generously and don't cause problems. But I don't see how shuffling around where someone sits on a Sunday helps build the kingdom, especially when they are shuffled into a multi-thousand-seat auditorium that needs a multi-million dollar building programme whilst 200-seat churches sit nearly empty.

[RZehr]

In our church, Lent is a time for examining our consciences, self reflection and penance. Is there a practice of penance in Anabaptist fellowships or is there another view that's held?

We don't practice penance. But a few days prior to communion service, we have what we call counsel meeting, which is a service for self reflection.

[Bootstrap]

In our church, Lent is a time for examining our consciences, self reflection and penance. Is there a practice of penance in Anabaptist fellowships or is there another view that's held?

We don't practice penance. But a few days prior to communion service, we have what we call counsel meeting, which is a service for self reflection.

Can you describe a counsel meeting in some detail?

[mike]

In our church, Lent is a time for examining our consciences, self reflection and penance. Is there a practice of penance in Anabaptist fellowships or is there another view that's held?

Never heard of a conservative Anabaptist church that practiced penance.

[MaxPC]

I'm enjoying the Anabaptist input on this concept; it's truly been helpful in my understanding of the brotherly accountability landscape. Sometimes vocabulary gets in the way because if I say "orange", it might mean a whole other fruit to an Anabaptist. I'm glad we can charitably explore those meanings for better understanding.

Yeah, they are entirely different concepts. Ours can be far more difficult in practice, as you must normally go face to face with the one you have sinned against.

J.M.

These days that's usually the suggestion of the priest for the penance.

I have other questions I'll post in another thread.

You mean the "Hail Marys" are gone? I got to a point where I could say them really fast.

J.M.

We affectionately call those "Speedy Marys"

[Josh]

We affectionately call those "Speedy Marys"

Are they as effective as a normal-speed Hail Mary, or should you talk a little slower when you're trying to appease God for some particularly bad sin?

[Judas Maccabeus]

I try to find unity in my local brotherhood first and then we try to find unity with other churches who want to find unity with us.

Christianity across the globe as a whole is too big of a problem for Josh to fix. That's why we trust the good shepherd of the sheep.

One start, though, is for independent churches to quit catering to trying to snatch up people who are already Christian. Parkside is notorious for proselytising us Mennonites, since we make good reliable attenders and give generously and don't cause problems. But I don't see how shuffling around where someone sits on a Sunday helps build the kingdom, especially when they are shuffled into a multi-thousand-seat auditorium that needs a multi-million dollar building programme whilst 200-seat churches sit nearly empty.

When it was clear that my former C&MA 200 seat church was on hard times, I started getting ads in the mail from the local IFB Megachurch. It was obvious that someone gave them our directory because none of my neighbors seem to have gotten this mail.

They lost me with the line "In our school we teach the Bible and Patriotism "

It is an example of the consumerist mentality, go to the one that offers the most programs I want.

Our church will lose out on this. All we offer is Jesus, the Bible and each other.

J.M.