Doing Penance

[Josh]

KB and all: Let's refocus this thread on the original query regarding current Anabaptist practices only. We've had some excellent, positive and charitable input from active Anabaptists thus far ... any other views/sharing from active Anabaptists?

So far, everyone here who has posted is an active Anabaptist or interested in being one, other than you and Valerie.

Judas Maccabeus is a member in a plain, conservative Mennonite church.

ken_sylvania is a plain, conservative Mennonite (I believe he is a member but not 100% sure)

Chris attends a plain, moderate-conservative Anabaptist church.

KingdomBuilder would be interested in an Anabaptist church, but none are near where he lives.

Sudsy attends a Mennonite Brethren church.

RZehr is a member in a plain, conservative Mennonite church.

appleman is a member in a plain, conservative Mennonite church.

Bootstrap was a member in a Mennonite church. He separated when that church accepted homosexuality and Bootstrap felt that was unscriptural. He fellowships elsewhere, but still embraces Anabaptist theology, particularly nonviolence, and chooses to be a good witness for that in his home church.

I myself attend Holdeman and am accepted on a track to baptism and membership there. I still have a good relationship with another conservative Mennonite church in the area and attend their youth group. I also fellowship with a small, home-based quasi-church group that embraces nonresistant, plain Anabaptist theology and practice.

Meanwhile:

MaxPC is a committed Catholic. Catholics are not Anabaptist.

Valerie seems to be supporting Eastern Orthodoxy, although to my knowledge she is not Eastern Orthodox nor attends at one. (Please correct me if I am wrong). Eastern Orthodoxy is not Anabaptism, and Pentecostalism is not Anabaptism either.

[KingdomBuilder]

any other views/sharing from active Anabaptists?

Active meaning what? I assume you are meaning actively in a congregation. I strive to actively live and apply Christian-anabaptistism, but I'm not near any congregations (as Josh just mentioned).

Suppose I'll slide out of this one, if that is the case.

[Bootstrap]

Meanwhile:

MaxPC is a committed Catholic. Catholics are not Anabaptist.

Valerie seems to be supporting Eastern Orthodoxy, although to my knowledge she is not Eastern Orthodox nor attends at one. (Please correct me if I am wrong). Eastern Orthodoxy is not Anabaptism, and Pentecostalism is not Anabaptism either.

And that's not a problem - people are allowed to participate here. But I really don't think it's OK for a Catholic to come in here and try to make all the rules about who is allowed to participate and who is a good enough Mennonite or Anabaptist. Barely a day goes by without Max making plain that there are people here he doesn't like and it's important for him to say that. That's not good for the atmosphere here. I don't think it's OK to make claims about Plain Catholics and try to manipulate things so that people can't ask whether they actually exist. I don't think it's OK to name claims about what Catholics teach and be offended if someone quotes the Catechism or other Catholic sources that represent official Catholic teaching. I don't think it's OK to imply that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church and then be offended if we explain why we disagree.

And I think we should be expected to check things that anyone says and discuss them. We do that with each other, after all. We don't usually bring up the Catholic or Orthodox perspective. When someone else does, we discuss it. That's what people do on a discussion forum.

Taking offense can be a very powerful passive-aggressive ploy. We shouldn't enable that.

[ken_sylvania]

Max, how does this idea of penance come into play when a person sins only against God but not necessarily against another person. For instance, suppose a person was out working by himself, had things go wrong, and experienced a fit of anger. Would penance be required? If so, what kind?

My apologies for making two posts in a row, but I hope to find out more of what you are meaning. Ken. Are you saying you view anger as sinful?

I can honestly say that the Catholic Church would view that situation as frustrational anger and it's not considered sinful unless you take your anger out on someone else. You're just frustrated and angry with the situation. What Catholics should do: we have a conversation with God about the situation. It's an opportunity to give over the situation to God's control.

I think a typical anabaptist viewpoint would accept that a person who has experienced the emotion of anger hasn't necessarily sinned unless he allows that emotion to remain. But deeds done in anger or as a result of anger I believe are sinful.
Probably wasn't the best example to use. I'll try to restate my question.
RCC materials seem to be clear that penance is required both for sins only against God, as well as for sins that are both against God and fellow humans. What is an example of a penance that might be assigned for a sin only against God, and how do you reconcile that with the position you stated earlier that penance is basically making amends for sin?

[ken_sylvania]

How do you as Anabaptists help someone who has fallen into a sinful walk recover and re-enter into a right relationship of discipleship? Does it vary by fellowship or is there a somewhat universal practice?

If someone has fallen into a sinful walk, we would pray for him, and speak with him, showing him what the Scriptures have to say about his sinful choices. If he is unrepentant, he would be excommunicated, "cut off" from the fellowship of the saints. The exact form of this "cutting off" will vary, based on the severity of the sin, as well as on a particular groups understanding of the best way to put into practice the NT commands regarding the same. As was mentioned previously, this discipline is performed in love. The goal, as it relates to your question, is to help the sinner to recognize that his sin has cut him off from God and from the fellowship of the saints.
When the fallen brother repents, the church will pray with him, counseling with him to ensure that he understands the scope of his error and to assist him in developing right thought patterns and actions consistent with repentance. We would be interested not only in the specific major sin, but also in what may have led up to it. For instance, if a brother was found to be cheating in business transactions, the focus will be not just on cheating in business, but on the choices and desires of the heart that led to the cheating (covetousness, close relationships with people who espouse shady dealings, etc.). Our desire would be to work together to address the entire package and help our brother on the upward way.
Generally, a person who repents and asks to be restored to the fellowship of the believers will be subjected to a time of proving to allow the church to assess whether his repentance is genuine. If a person is found to be a liar, he would be expected to confess (privately or publicly, depending on the circumstances). If a person has stolen, he would be expected to repay, with generous measure. However, this is not penance. This is the fruits of repentance. Penance says that a person must make amends before receiving forgiveness, but the Bible says that salvation is a gift of God that results in a changed life (fruits of repentance). If a person's fruit is brambles, we know he's not a fig tree.

[MaxPC]

How do you as Anabaptists help someone who has fallen into a sinful walk recover and re-enter into a right relationship of discipleship? Does it vary by fellowship or is there a somewhat universal practice?

If someone has fallen into a sinful walk, we would pray for him, and speak with him, showing him what the Scriptures have to say about his sinful choices. If he is unrepentant, he would be excommunicated, "cut off" from the fellowship of the saints. The exact form of this "cutting off" will vary, based on the severity of the sin, as well as on a particular groups understanding of the best way to put into practice the NT commands regarding the same. As was mentioned previously, this discipline is performed in love. The goal, as it relates to your question, is to help the sinner to recognize that his sin has cut him off from God and from the fellowship of the saints.
When the fallen brother repents, the church will pray with him, counseling with him to ensure that he understands the scope of his error and to assist him in developing right thought patterns and actions consistent with repentance. We would be interested not only in the specific major sin, but also in what may have led up to it. For instance, if a brother was found to be cheating in business transactions, the focus will be not just on cheating in business, but on the choices and desires of the heart that led to the cheating (covetousness, close relationships with people who espouse shady dealings, etc.). Our desire would be to work together to address the entire package and help our brother on the upward way.
Generally, a person who repents and asks to be restored to the fellowship of the believers will be subjected to a time of proving to allow the church to assess whether his repentance is genuine. If a person is found to be a liar, he would be expected to confess (privately or publicly, depending on the circumstances). If a person has stolen, he would be expected to repay, with generous measure. However, this is not penance. This is the fruits of repentance. Penance says that a person must make amends before receiving forgiveness, but the Bible says that salvation is a gift of God that results in a changed life (fruits of repentance). If a person's fruit is brambles, we know he's not a fig tree.

Thank you, Ken. If you're willing I'll take the RCC question to PM mode so we can keep the topic focused on Anabaptists.

[Bootstrap]

Thank you, Ken. If you're willing I'll take the RCC question to PM mode so we can keep the topic focused on Anabaptists.

I really would like to hear your answer too. You start a lot of threads on some question about what Anabaptists believe. Each one starts out by saying that the thread should be about you and the plain Anabaptists. Somewhere during each thread you imply that you believe the same thing that they do, and that this is the correct way to believe and better than what other people believe. You have started threads on the same topic quite a few times, too, and in subsequent threads, it's not always clear that you remember what was said in the earlier thread. These threads of yours have become a significant percent of the traffic here.

Each time, some of us wonder how you can be faithful to Catholic teaching (since you say you are faithful to the Magisterium) while believing and doing what plain Anabaptists do. How do you reconcile the Catholic teaching on penance with an Anabaptists approach, for instance, or what aspects of Sattler do you identify with if he is a hero of yours, and how does that relate to your Catholicism?

Why would a Catholic identify with Anabaptists, and how do you work out significant differences like these?

To really understand these things, I don't think an internet forum is sufficient. I think you would have to get really close to some Anabaptist or Mennonite community and spend time with them. There's a lot that I don't know, I have known some plain Mennonites, but I have never been part of a plain Menno community. But if we're going to discuss these things here, I'd really like to know how you come to terms with them, how you reconcile Catholicism with the trappings of plain Anabaptists. I would like to hear about the way you live out your own life. I would like to be able to actually discuss things, taking what you say seriously.

[Sudsy]

How do you as Anabaptists help someone who has fallen into a sinful walk recover and re-enter into a right relationship of discipleship? Does it vary by fellowship or is there a somewhat universal practice?

If someone has fallen into a sinful walk, we would pray for him, and speak with him, showing him what the Scriptures have to say about his sinful choices. If he is unrepentant, he would be excommunicated, "cut off" from the fellowship of the saints. The exact form of this "cutting off" will vary, based on the severity of the sin, as well as on a particular groups understanding of the best way to put into practice the NT commands regarding the same. As was mentioned previously, this discipline is performed in love. The goal, as it relates to your question, is to help the sinner to recognize that his sin has cut him off from God and from the fellowship of the saints.
When the fallen brother repents, the church will pray with him, counseling with him to ensure that he understands the scope of his error and to assist him in developing right thought patterns and actions consistent with repentance. We would be interested not only in the specific major sin, but also in what may have led up to it. For instance, if a brother was found to be cheating in business transactions, the focus will be not just on cheating in business, but on the choices and desires of the heart that led to the cheating (covetousness, close relationships with people who espouse shady dealings, etc.). Our desire would be to work together to address the entire package and help our brother on the upward way.
Generally, a person who repents and asks to be restored to the fellowship of the believers will be subjected to a time of proving to allow the church to assess whether his repentance is genuine. If a person is found to be a liar, he would be expected to confess (privately or publicly, depending on the circumstances). If a person has stolen, he would be expected to repay, with generous measure. However, this is not penance. This is the fruits of repentance. Penance says that a person must make amends before receiving forgiveness, but the Bible says that salvation is a gift of God that results in a changed life (fruits of repentance). If a person's fruit is brambles, we know he's not a fig tree.

Thanks Ken, well explained. Question - suppose a member is not following a rule, such as one regarding dress (i.e. a man wearing short pants) could they be excommunicated not perhaps because of wearing short pants but on the basis that they were not submitting to the church ?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Yeah, they are entirely different concepts. Ours can be far more difficult in practice, as you must normally go face to face with the one you have sinned against.

J.M.

These days that's usually the suggestion of the priest for the penance.

I have other questions I'll post in another thread.

You mean the "Hail Marys" are gone? I got to a point where I could say them really fast.

J.M.

[ken_sylvania]

Question - suppose a member is not following a rule, such as one regarding dress (i.e. a man wearing short pants) could they be excommunicated not perhaps because of wearing short pants but on the basis that they were not submitting to the church ?

I think the response to such a situation would vary greatly by group. I expect there are some churches that would excommunicate "because of wearing short pants." I have heard of some churches being so rule-oriented that they feel they can't discipline a member unless he is breaking one of the "church rules." I'm not personally acquainted with any such congregations, but I'm not ready to dispute their existence. However, most conservative Anabaptists would consider such an approach unhealthy.
Then there would be the approach you asked about, namely excommunication based on "lack of submission" when rules are breached. I've had more exposure to such feelings being expressed. I think many or most CAs would also consider this to be an unhealthy approach as well if this is all the further the concern extended.
In thinking about such situations, keep in mind that many of us conservative Mennonites view the practical guidelines of our various churches not as restrictions so much as corporately developed guidelines to help us better serve our Lord and to help us in living righteous Godly lives. We believe in working out our salvation together as a church, and that we need to help one another along the way. We place a high value on making decisions and developing conviction as a group, in addition to at a personal level. If our church has established a minimum expectation of what constitutes modest apparel, whether in writing or not, it is likely because the church believes that at some point beyond that guideline would be a violation of Biblical command or principle. If a member chooses to violate a standard that we've set for our own spiritual good, our concerns would include that (a) he is blind to the spiritual danger involved, and that (b) he cares more about his own wishes and desires than about the spiritual good of himself and the church.
When an erring member becomes argumentative, refusing to accept or seriously consider the concerns that are raised by the ministry and others regarding his actions, then the "lack of submission" may come into play, the issues run a lot deeper than that.