Doing Penance

[Judas Maccabeus]

Correct- we are presently attending a 'non-denomination' church as a safe place- we are suffering from overexposure to too many branches of Christianity where we find good things in all yet all of them are opposed to one another (well Orthodox at least will say each denomination has a 'slice of the pie' which makes sense to me). I doubt we will return to Pentecost even though I recognize they do have a lot of faith, gifts of the Spirit and I witnessed things that seemed like the early Church in many ways- (tongues, prophecies, words of knowledge, miracles, healings)- the Charismatic movement seems to embrace a group of people, an Apostolic Movement & Prophetic Movement, etc- that we were not comfortable with- since we continually pray for discernment, our spirits were troubled and we had to leave. Plus I had embraced some of Anabaptism which is polar opposite of their practices-

I only entered this topic because as I read a section in David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs- there was a reference to Church writers who eluded to this- so it goes waaaaay back in Church history- maybe not exactly the way Catholics practice but there is at least references to it under the section of 'church discipline'
Not to bunny trail but to clarify since you were not sure Josh

Just a caution: Some of these "non-denominational" are the most dangerous churches around, due to the lack of any effective oversight of their leaders.

J.M.

Thank you, I appreciate your word of caution- Pastor Begg's teaching is very solid & sound- and he does not stray away from the word & when he gives opinions, he makes it clear they are his own opinions- I think, being from Scotland, that he grew up Presbyterian but left that denomination for many reasons- the Church in the Cleveland area sought him out and so he relocated to here from Scotland- the Presbyterian Church is dividing like many, but I know one thing- Pastor Begg doesn't believe in infant baptism that the Presbyterian Church practices- so he has a calling as a Pastor, he is faithful to that calling but doesn't ascribe to many man made ordinances or rituals (at least he believes many are man made)

Celebrity pastor? I don't know the guy, and would say nothing bad about him, but on principle a double measure of caution is warranted because there is likely no one who would be willing to hold him accountable. I have seen this story play out too many times in my neck of the woods. Sometimes multiple times with the same celebrity!

J.M.

[Valerie]

Just a caution: Some of these "non-denominational" are the most dangerous churches around, due to the lack of any effective oversight of their leaders.

J.M.

Thank you, I appreciate your word of caution- Pastor Begg's teaching is very solid & sound- and he does not stray away from the word & when he gives opinions, he makes it clear they are his own opinions- I think, being from Scotland, that he grew up Presbyterian but left that denomination for many reasons- the Church in the Cleveland area sought him out and so he relocated to here from Scotland- the Presbyterian Church is dividing like many, but I know one thing- Pastor Begg doesn't believe in infant baptism that the Presbyterian Church practices- so he has a calling as a Pastor, he is faithful to that calling but doesn't ascribe to many man made ordinances or rituals (at least he believes many are man made)

Celebrity pastor? I don't know the guy, and would say nothing bad about him, but on principle a double measure of caution is warranted because there is likely no one who would be willing to hold him accountable. I have seen this story play out too many times in my neck of the woods. Sometimes multiple times with the same celebrity!

J.M.

Well- whew- this is a tough court to be a Christian or Pastor in- Pastor Begg has been the Pastor there for 34 years I think something would have come out by now- but no, usually Pastors in these kinds of congregations have a council that they are accountable to-

Josh for the record, I have never heard him preach any of the theology you mentioned above- we are not once saved always saved Believers but this has gotten way off track, from just simply answering you pages ago when you asked about where we were- I didn't mean for it to turn into a Pastor Begg bashing-

[Josh]

Begg is a member of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, which “promotes the traditional doctrines of the Protestant Reformation, particularly Calvinism,bin response to a perception that ‘the light of the Reformation has been significantly dimmed.’ It has been branded as ‘exclusivist’ because of its focus on Reformed thought. The Alliance has Anglican, Baptist, Christian Reformed,and Presbyterian supporters.”

Fellow theologian and author R.C. Sproul wrote that "Alistair Begg incarnates this Neo-Puritan movement, a humble champion who has been galvanized by a magnificent obsession with the God-centered life.

I think it's pretty factual that Begg is Reformed, and he's going to incorporate Reformed teaching into the church he is the head of.

References:

- Roger E. Olson, The SCM Press A-Z of Evangelical Theology, SCM Press, 2005, ISBN 0-334-04011-6, p. 297.

- Randall Herbert Balmer, Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Westminster John Knox Press, 2002, ISBN 0-664-22409-1, p. 102.

- Steve Wilkens and Don Thorsen, Everything You Know about Evangelicals Is Wrong (Well, Almost Everything): An Insider's Look at Myths and Realities, Baker Books, 2010, ISBN 0-8010-7097-X, p. 124.

- R. Michael Allen, Reformed Theology, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010, ISBN 0-567-03430-5, p. 6.

- R. C. Sproul, Made For His Pleasure

[Josh]

It's also not bashing to point out Begg is Reformed. He'd be complimented to be called such.

I do think it's good to be honest about how things really are. If One True Church beliefs are really important to you, and being Eastern Orthodox is important to you, that's your decision, but it's really confusing that you keep advocating for those things yet attend a Reformed, evangelical church.

I actually am part of a One True Church group.
I do not spend my time pushing that viewpoint on MennoNet.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Thank you, I appreciate your word of caution- Pastor Begg's teaching is very solid & sound- and he does not stray away from the word & when he gives opinions, he makes it clear they are his own opinions- I think, being from Scotland, that he grew up Presbyterian but left that denomination for many reasons- the Church in the Cleveland area sought him out and so he relocated to here from Scotland- the Presbyterian Church is dividing like many, but I know one thing- Pastor Begg doesn't believe in infant baptism that the Presbyterian Church practices- so he has a calling as a Pastor, he is faithful to that calling but doesn't ascribe to many man made ordinances or rituals (at least he believes many are man made)

Celebrity pastor? I don't know the guy, and would say nothing bad about him, but on principle a double measure of caution is warranted because there is likely no one who would be willing to hold him accountable. I have seen this story play out too many times in my neck of the woods. Sometimes multiple times with the same celebrity!

J.M.

Well- whew- this is a tough court to be a Christian or Pastor in- Pastor Begg has been the Pastor there for 34 years I think something would have come out by now- but no, usually Pastors in these kinds of congregations have a council that they are accountable to-

Josh for the record, I have never heard him preach any of the theology you mentioned above- we are not once saved always saved Believers but this has gotten way off track, from just simply answering you pages ago when you asked about where we were- I didn't mean for it to turn into a Pastor Begg bashing-

Unfortunately, sometimes the councils are handpicked by the pastor in question, and are most unwilling to stand up to him. There have been several such incidents like that in these parts. This is a caution flag, not an accusation. I don't know the guy, and certainly would not bash him, it is the principle.

I have a philosophical issue with megachurches in general. Conservative mennonites don't do megachurches for what I believe to be good reasons.

It is the whole idea that authority without relationship is almost certainly going to be perceived as illegitimate. Therefor megachurches really don't have the relationships in place to be a truly functioning church, they really don't do much, if any spiritual formation. Try getting face time with the pastor, and likely you will be kicked several levels down, they are not shepherd, they are more ranchers.

J.M.

[Valerie]

It's also not bashing to point out Begg is Reformed. He'd be complimented to be called such.

I do think it's good to be honest about how things really are. If One True Church beliefs are really important to you, and being Eastern Orthodox is important to you, that's your decision, but it's really confusing that you keep advocating for those things yet attend a Reformed, evangelical church.

I actually am part of a One True Church group.
I do not spend my time pushing that viewpoint on MennoNet.

This forum isn't about me Josh- don't worry about it- God is in control. We trust Him.

[Valerie]

Celebrity pastor? I don't know the guy, and would say nothing bad about him, but on principle a double measure of caution is warranted because there is likely no one who would be willing to hold him accountable. I have seen this story play out too many times in my neck of the woods. Sometimes multiple times with the same celebrity!

J.M.

Well- whew- this is a tough court to be a Christian or Pastor in- Pastor Begg has been the Pastor there for 34 years I think something would have come out by now- but no, usually Pastors in these kinds of congregations have a council that they are accountable to-

Josh for the record, I have never heard him preach any of the theology you mentioned above- we are not once saved always saved Believers but this has gotten way off track, from just simply answering you pages ago when you asked about where we were- I didn't mean for it to turn into a Pastor Begg bashing-

Unfortunately, sometimes the councils are handpicked by the pastor in question, and are most unwilling to stand up to him. There have been several such incidents like that in these parts. This is a caution flag, not an accusation. I don't know the guy, and certainly would not bash him, it is the principle.

I have a philosophical issue with megachurches in general. Conservative mennonites don't do megachurches for what I believe to be good reasons.

It is the whole idea that authority without relationship is almost certainly going to be perceived as illegitimate. Therefor megachurches really don't have the relationships in place to be a truly functioning church, they really don't do much, if any spiritual formation. Try getting face time with the pastor, and likely you will be kicked several levels down, they are not shepherd, they are more ranchers.

J.M.

To be honest, I really don't like megachurches. I like the idea of Mennonites breaking up into smaller churches. The way Parkside handles it is breaking up into small groups for Sunday School & Bible studies outside of the Church. I don't know, I've heard many people, new ones- have been able to meet one on one with him, and he likes that- Also the area Jewish Synagogue invited him to come speak about Jesus- I didn't hear how that went- but, I do know God is using him and for that I am grateful. As I shared earlier, this is a safe place for us- it's been very difficult to find a new 'home' after being active members in a congregation for 20 years, again we were wary of some things in the Charismatic movement that we could not embrace- that many in our fellowship were beginning to. It's very very hard these days to find a church with what we believe is sound doctrine-

[Sudsy]

Valerie, Begg's series on James is excellent. I used in in leading a MB adult bible class a few years back. We used some Sproul and Charles Stanley and other non-Anabaptist teachers in our studies. We didn't have those fears of Reform doctrine and it seldom surfaced in these lessons. When it did we dealt with it.

I recommend for those who can get past the Reformed handle to check out Begg's sermons and see for themselves what he really teaches - http://www.parksidechurch.com/learn/res ... er/sermon/

Boy has this thread strayed from 'doing penance'.

[Valerie]

Valerie, Begg's series on James is excellent. I used in in leading a MB adult bible class a few years back. We used some Sproul and Charles Stanley and other non-Anabaptist teachers in our studies. We didn't have those fears of Reform doctrine and it seldom surfaced in these lessons. When it did we dealt with it.

I recommend for those who can get past the Reformed handle to check out Begg's sermons and see for themselves what he really teaches - http://www.parksidechurch.com/learn/res ... er/sermon/

Boy has this thread strayed from 'doing penance'.

Thank you Sudsy, yes this strayed off topic! To be honest, I don't really understand what Reformed handle means- when you come from the more Evangelical/Pentecostal movement like I have, we didn't even discuss the Reformation- or 'reformed doctrine'. As you know the Pentecost movement was a time when Christians were seeking God and believed He poured out His Holy Spirit like He did on the day of Pentecost- there was not any focus in our churches about the Reformation and learning all about that- those became denominations that Pentecost seemed to think had become somewhat dead (Spiritually). We have really loved hearing Pastor Begg's messages since my husband first discovered his Truth for Life program 15 years ago- when I began listening, I felt like this isn't just teaching, it is preaching- and I appreciated that he would sometimes say those hard admonishments to his own congregation that I felt probably caused them to stir in their seats- many pastors are afraid to do this- but he tells it like it is and I need that- we need that. Thank you.

[MaxPC]

I wonder how Begg enters into and begs the topic of Penance which is what this thread is about?