Standards vs Reality

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:Sometimes I don't know how I got so lucky. I've learned there are some scary corners of the Anabaptist world.

Somehow I ended up in places with lots and lots of love. And somehow some of my friends to move and follow me to church. I cringe to think if I had got them into a bad situation!!

Nowadays it is snowballing, with that friend in turn wanting to bring in another one of his friends into the community who has major spiritual and earthly need. I can only pray for the loving shepherd of the sheep to help guide the ministry at that church and every visitor into his sheepfold. The problems we all face and the threat of worldliness, false doctrine, and losing our first love are too big for me to fix.
Josh, the evangelical world has some that are even scarier. Wife and I spent the first three or four years of our marriage ministering to people that had been damaged by a shepherding cult.

Thank God for the good things that can be found in the Anabaptist world, if you are persistent and search.

J.M.
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Chris
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Chris »

Signtist wrote:A lot of folks born and raised as Mennonites (I know, I know, nobody is born mennonite) actually have no clue what some people from other backgrounds have gone through. Walking away from any culture and trying to fit into a new culture is hard enough. If someone goes from a non-Christian to Christian culture it's hard for us to grasp just what they had to all walk away from.

Failing to grasp the magnitude of the changes that people have gone through, or are going through, can lead to problems. Failing to appreciate just how far someone has come while focusing on where we think they should be also leads to problems. While we give lip service to our trust in the Holy Spirit's direction, far too often in our Mennonite culture we use rules as a vehicle to facilitate sanctification in others. When we top this off with "standard vs.reality", nothing but confusion will be forthcoming. And yes, there are churches where this double standard exists. I have witnessed it first hand. There are also many where it does not, for which I am grateful. Another point I believe to be true is that a church that has this disparity will also hold a newcomer with no Mennonite history to a different standard than "their own." In addition to this, there will be different standards for different of "their own."

God is not the author of what?
I came from another Christian background way more conservative in dress than Mennonites. It is actually a bit entertaining when I show them how my culture dressed because Mennos don't know what to do with it. Mennos judge a lot on dress, yet we were way more conservative than Amish in many ways.

But yes, I don't expect MB people to understand how far and how much pain goes into making the decision.

But I CAN'T STAND far beyond anything else a stigma that people are just "wanting Menno culture" when they come to Mennonites. In fact, I've had people say "I concerned you came here for our culture" - gut wrenching. No, I had cutlure, I had a ton of culture, even a culture more detailed than Mennonite.... You guys and your cute bonnets. :p

What I wanted was theological truth. The culture itself is different, but not nearly as extreme.

The biggest shock: People don't just come to church. Members are expected to participate in all aspects of the church itself. I know that sounds a bit weird to say. No probs helping church clean ups / construction / maint / and such, that's normal. Other stuff such as any member brother can give a message (and is sometimes asked to), brothers giving devotions (expected to)... Some of that goes a bit far I think, or at least it is unknown to NMB folks. Just because somebody wants to go to a Menno church doesn't mean they want to become a preacher. It doesn't mean they want to be a bench warmer either.... I don't know how to explain it -> my tone of voice is not ugly in typing this btw, it is just kind of like "what?? - I didn't come here to preach". This is baked in with several Menno cultures apparently, and some not. I just tell my wife "Apparently Mennonites love speeches". :)
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Chris
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Chris »

As far as standards go, I FULLY believe in conviction way way above standards.

Why don't you watch TV? Is it because your church said "no it's worldly" or do you really know that many of it's "programs" indoctrinate the audience into satanic ideologies?

Movies? Same thing.

Children's shows/ Disney? Same thing. So many contain the core teaching of Satanism.

I formed my own convictions. I have an idea but never read the standards at my church on media. Apparently, we are doing it.
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Sudsy
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Sudsy »

Chris wrote:As far as standards go, I FULLY believe in conviction way way above standards.

Why don't you watch TV? Is it because your church said "no it's worldly" or do you really know that many of it's "programs" indoctrinate the audience into satanic ideologies?

Movies? Same thing.

Children's shows/ Disney? Same thing. So many contain the core teaching of Satanism.

I formed my own convictions. I have an idea but never read the standards at my church on media. Apparently, we are doing it.
Amen and this is where I have trouble with some conservative concepts of Christian practise. A belief is personal convictions is often considered too individual. Anabaptism is at war with individualism. That is thought to be the weakness of Evangelicalism and progressive Anabaptists. Other believers as a group are to decide what to do and what not to do or else we can't be part of their fellowship. Whether one agrees with these rules as a personal conviction doesn't matter. Romans 14 seems just too conflicting with allowing individuals the right to follow God as they are convicted and still be part of a fellowship. This control on other believers is viewed as a way of caring for one another's spiritual growth and/or avoidance from sinning and/or keeping the church pure. The Holy Spirit then is not allowed to work individually to convict of sin over one's lifetime and is replaced by an extra biblical definition of sinning that must be adhered to.

When Jesus talked about the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in Matthew 23, the Pharisees were a group of relgious leaders trying to control others by a means that seems similar. They were the 'official interpreters of the law of Moses'. They defined what was transgressing this law. They were crushing people with heavy demands. One of their failings was in their concern on outward appearance and how they stood out in the world. In their case, pride was the driver, not honouring God.

I think groups keen on holiness, and this goes beyond Anabaptists, should consider where the lines of fellowship are drawn and whether there is real sciptural support for drawing these lines as Jesus has accepted these believers, as Romans 14 says. So who are we to not accept them into fellowship as they are ? These Pharisees were the extreme example we have of a group with standards that missed the main point in honouring God.

I realize this is challenging church 'standards' that imo, conflict with personal convictions and I'm ready to hear the opposing arguments. But getting back to Chris's point, I agree, why we chose to follow Christ in a certain way is important.
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Hats Off »

Chris wrote: But I CAN'T STAND far beyond anything else a stigma that people are just "wanting Menno culture" when they come to Mennonites. In fact, I've had people say "I concerned you came here for our culture" - gut wrenching. No, I had cutlure, I had a ton of culture, even a culture more detailed than Mennonite.... You guys and your cute bonnets. :p

What I wanted was theological truth. The culture itself is different, but not nearly as extreme.

The biggest shock: People don't just come to church. Members are expected to participate in all aspects of the church itself. I know that sounds a bit weird to say. No probs helping church clean ups / construction / maint / and such, that's normal. Other stuff such as any member brother can give a message (and is sometimes asked to), brothers giving devotions (expected to)... Some of that goes a bit far I think, or at least it is unknown to NMB folks. Just because somebody wants to go to a Menno church doesn't mean they want to become a preacher. It doesn't mean they want to be a bench warmer either.... I don't know how to explain it -> my tone of voice is not ugly in typing this btw, it is just kind of like "what?? - I didn't come here to preach". This is baked in with several Menno cultures apparently, and some not. I just tell my wife "Apparently Mennonites love speeches". :)
If anything we seem to pride ourselves on seeing that you want what we have. So many of us think only of culture - a way of life - and forget that we actually have teaching that may attract. We had a NMB family attending for a while where the man said "this is quite a switch - moving from standing in front of the congregation, preaching, to a seat in the back row." If we caught on that a NMB wanted a speaking position we would be most cautious. If only we could accept each other without trying to figure out what you are after. You could come to our church without being expected to give a devotion although if you became a member and really fitted into our culture, and a year or two had gone by and we needed a preacher, you just might (probably would be) nominated as a candidate. We seem to prefer the newest people in our congregation; we don't know them as well as those who grew up with us so we think they would be the perfect candidate.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Chris wrote:I don't expect MB people to understand how far and how much pain goes into making the decision.

But I CAN'T STAND far beyond anything else a stigma that people are just "wanting Menno culture" when they come to Mennonites. In fact, I've had people say "I concerned you came here for our culture" - gut wrenching. No, I had cutlure, I had a ton of culture, even a culture more detailed than Mennonite.... You guys and your cute bonnets. :p

What I wanted was theological truth. The culture itself is different, but not nearly as extreme.
We did not expect this either, but we did expect for respect of our backgrounds as well. It was automatically assumed it was sinful because we came from out there. We were raised in church with family in ministry. We were aware of God, Christian, and were looking for a Christian church. We did not care about the denomination as long as they followed the word.

They also assumed we were there because they were Mennonite, and unfortunately there were other NMBs that told them that was their reason. It made me shake my head because God should be the reason but whatever gets them in and closer to God works I suppose. We never made such claims but again we were lumped together.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Sudsy wrote: Amen and this is where I have trouble with some conservative concepts of Christian practise. A belief is personal convictions is often considered too individual. Anabaptism is at war with individualism. That is thought to be the weakness of Evangelicalism and progressive Anabaptists. Other believers as a group are to decide what to do and what not to do or else we can't be part of their fellowship. Whether one agrees with these rules as a personal conviction doesn't matter. Romans 14 seems just too conflicting with allowing individuals the right to follow God as they are convicted and still be part of a fellowship. This control on other believers is viewed as a way of caring for one another's spiritual growth and/or avoidance from sinning and/or keeping the church pure. The Holy Spirit then is not allowed to work individually to convict of sin over one's lifetime and is replaced by an extra biblical definition of sinning that must be adhered to.

When Jesus talked about the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in Matthew 23, the Pharisees were a group of relgious leaders trying to control others by a means that seems similar. They were the 'official interpreters of the law of Moses'. They defined what was transgressing this law. They were crushing people with heavy demands. One of their failings was in their concern on outward appearance and how they stood out in the world. In their case, pride was the driver, not honouring God.

I think groups keen on holiness, and this goes beyond Anabaptists, should consider where the lines of fellowship are drawn and whether there is real sciptural support for drawing these lines as Jesus has accepted these believers, as Romans 14 says. So who are we to not accept them into fellowship as they are ? These Pharisees were the extreme example we have of a group with standards that missed the main point in honouring God.

I realize this is challenging church 'standards' that imo, conflict with personal convictions and I'm ready to hear the opposing arguments. But getting back to Chris's point, I agree, why we chose to follow Christ in a certain way is important.
We came from a evangelistic background and I identify with what you say. Growing up I remember sermons on avoiding to become like the Pharisees.

I was willing to try the standards on top of the Bible because I have seen how churches have gone further away than they originally intended trying to avoid becoming like the Pharisees. I thought maybe this is how they (Mennonites) are avoiding the same decline. I was never convicted of the standards as I do not believe the type of pants you wear or whether men or women sit separately will lead to sin. However, I was willing to do as they did as that was where we were and it was not something that would go against God.

Which brings me back, to what I said it the original post and the realization they were not doing it.

What are the thoughts on self control? This is something I was taught growing up. Everyone is not going to dress modest. Just go to Walmart and you will see flesh out and about. Everyone, is not going to believe in God or listen to you when you try to share the word. People are not going to look like what you are used to and are not going to care about your feelings. People will have foul mouths. There has to be courage there and protection from God to deal with troubled souls. You also, have to be able to withstand the temptation when your community is not around.
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Josh »

Chris wrote:As far as standards go, I FULLY believe in conviction way way above standards.

Why don't you watch TV? Is it because your church said "no it's worldly" or do you really know that many of it's "programs" indoctrinate the audience into satanic ideologies?

Movies? Same thing.

Children's shows/ Disney? Same thing. So many contain the core teaching of Satanism.

I formed my own convictions. I have an idea but never read the standards at my church on media. Apparently, we are doing it.
Before I went to my church, I had no convictions about photography or of printing images of myself or of other people. (I did feel a certain amount of discomfort with "selfies", though.)

Despite not having any convictions, I chose to submit to this area anyway, and sought good spiritual counsel about how to approach things like photography being required on the job. I found joy in submitting to that.

Nowadays I do share the same conviction as my church, and see good spiritual fruit from abstaining from "selfies" and collecting pictures of people, living things, always taking photos when on trips, etc. That doesn't mean I think all Christians need to, but I think it's a good way for my specific congregation and church to live.

I think a lot of convictions will progress this way for people who become part of a plain community and plain church.
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Sudsy
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Sudsy »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote: What are the thoughts on self control? This is something I was taught growing up. Everyone is not going to dress modest. Just go to Walmart and you will see flesh out and about. Everyone, is not going to believe in God or listen to you when you try to share the word. People are not going to look like what you are used to and are not going to care about your feelings. People will have foul mouths. There has to be courage there and protection from God to deal with troubled souls. You also, have to be able to withstand the temptation when your community is not around.
Regarding community not around - most of my hours are when the community is not around. This I hope to see change in the near future as our city church is not really a 'community' outside of church programs/involvements. I spend considerable time on this forum, and I agree with those who think too much, but it is somewhat due to a lack of community/fellowship I am missing in our church. Partly my fault as I get discouraged that the fellowship I have experienced in most churches, outside of bible classes, is mainly of secular interests. One can be in community and hardly ever get into sharing with others their life in the Spirit. I am going to work with the pastor to find those I can have this fellowship with. I suspect those who habit these forums are often missing this kind of on-goin, spiritual conversation outside of internet forums.

Regarding self-control - as you say, if we engage with not yet believers, we need God's power working in our lives to not only handle temptations but to also share our faith. If we have just agreed to following a set of rules and don't walk in the Spirit and know His power, then this is only a form of godliness that lacks any impacting power. We need to know what personal convictions mean. We cannot rely on community when most of our day is apart from community, we must be able to stand alone. I believe Anabaptism is correct in promoting the need to fellowship in a community of believers and those who do this and also engage the world where the world lives are imo, really following Jesus pattern. Actually I think when a community is not engaging the world where the world lives, many problems arise in those communities.
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Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote: Before I went to my church, I had no convictions about photography or of printing images of myself or of other people. (I did feel a certain amount of discomfort with "selfies", though.)

Despite not having any convictions, I chose to submit to this area anyway, and sought good spiritual counsel about how to approach things like photography being required on the job. I found joy in submitting to that.

Nowadays I do share the same conviction as my church, and see good spiritual fruit from abstaining from "selfies" and collecting pictures of people, living things, always taking photos when on trips, etc. That doesn't mean I think all Christians need to, but I think it's a good way for my specific congregation and church to live.

I think a lot of convictions will progress this way for people who become part of a plain community and plain church.
Josh, this is one I never heard before regarding photography. Could you explain what this 'conviction' is about ?
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