Standards vs Reality

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Haystack
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:43 pm
Affiliation: Christian

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Haystack »

There's a lot of good insight and discussion in this topic, thank you for starting it. Unfortunately as a NMB I can't help but feel I should bite my tongue and not say anything.
0 x
temporal1
Posts: 16275
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by temporal1 »

Haystack wrote:There's a lot of good insight and discussion in this topic, thank you for starting it. Unfortunately as a NMB I can't help but feel I should bite my tongue and not say anything.
hi Haystack - :D
notice, this thread began with NMB questions+observations .. much of this forum "swirls" around the same. it can be a good place to share+learn. your thots/questions are as welcome as anyone's. :mrgreen:
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
Ernie
Posts: 5445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote:Where the rules are clear, cut and dried, I don't think there should be any debate by anyone as whether or not to abide by them. We should live up to our agreements. Sometimes there are situations where a person may ask for and be granted exemptions by the leaders, or the church. But it is extremely unhealthy for a church when people consider the rules as optional.
:up: :up:
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Wade
Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:09 am
Affiliation: kingdom Christian

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Wade »

Dan Z wrote:Hats off to Hatsoff! You speak with the wisdom of one who has been around for a while - and who has lived reflectively. :) Allow me to add a bit to Hatsoff 's comments.

First, I agree that inconsistency of church standards might be a sign of spiritual lukewarmness or even rebellion - and I appreciate Josh's admonition to discern the spirit of a group. However, look not just to church standards, but to the fruit of the Spirit at work in the group and their verbal and practical commitment to following the way of Jesus for signs of spiritual vitality.

But there may be another dynamic at stake as well...let me see if I can explain it.

Often when an NMB family comes into a plain community, they come because they are attracted by what they see as a radical expression of faith and a rejection of worldliness. Thus, they arrive with a zeal for plainness - wrestling with the significance of each act of non-conformity (dress, covering, relationship to entertainment, relationship to instruments, etc.). Their move toward plainness is front and center in their lives, and each life choice is significant because it represents a major change for them. In fact, they often face opposition from family and friends, who feel judged or rejected as a result of these choices. The NMB family takes comfort that they are not walking this difficult path of non-conformity alone, but that they are doing so as a part of like-minded brethren. That's one reason why they are disheartened when they see that the standards are being adhered to loosely.
  • Like a conscientious teen learning to drive for the first time, they are fixed on every road rule and every speed limit sign - thinking through every driving action (and analyzing the actions of others) in order to earn their rightful place as a safe and courteous driver. They are focused primarily on driving.
For those born and raised in a plain church, the relationship to church standards is much different. They are not necessarily less committed to the validity of church standards, but they follow them intuitively rather than deliberately - focusing on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Rather than seeing the standards as a rule book prescribing each action, the standards are understood more as guidelines that affirm how they try to live their lives. Unless a person is in rebellion or spiritual distress, the church standards are quite comfortable and are followed unconsciously - more or less.
  • Like a driver who has safely driven cars for many years, the rules of the road and the mechanics of driving become intuitive - second nature. They are generally aware of the speed limit, but also of the flow of traffic and what feels like a safe speed and conduct on a given road in given conditions. They are not a rebellious or aggressive driver (those are easy to pick out), but by now they have grown beyond the need to be fixated on the minutia of driving. They are focused on the journey.

    Can experienced drivers become too complacent? Sure.
    Can they develop bad or lazy habits? Definitely!

    In fact it is a good idea for them to be reminded regularly of what the rules are, an even attend a drivers safety course now and then to remain sharp....and they can learn a few things about being conscientious from that teen driver as well.

    Oh...and eventually the teen driver becomes more experienced and more intuitive in their driving, and they will get to a point where their focus is more on the journey than the act of driving.
Sincerely,

An NMB whose journey toward non-conformed Anabaptism started about 30 years ago. :)
I realize that often it seems you like to give generalizations about others, and you are good at articulating a convincing point - so I may fail in my attempt to convey what actually may be closer to the truth.

Newcomers who are born-again and have experienced conversion have new hearts. The problem is that they do not automatically have new minds. Our minds require more work and renewing.
Now imagine a newcomer that was raised aethiest or even raised in some other denomination with never hearing about any Anabaptist's teachings. They go to church and see some big issues. Their heart knows when there is problems but they lack the ability to communicate it rightly as their minds are not apapted to "spiritual" language. So they attempt to speak to the minister who has been doing this for 50+ years. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, rather they look at them as immature or not following the Spirit. The newcomer tries with errors that are happening in regards to not following the standards of the church by its own members to draw out that deeper meaning and get help... It fails because of these generalizations like posted above.

To be misunderstood is another expectation a newcomer should have.
0 x
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Dan Z »

Wade wrote:I realize that often it seems you like to give generalizations about others, and you are good at articulating a convincing point - so I may fail in my attempt to convey what actually may be closer to the truth.
You're right Wade...I do like to generalize as a way of trying to make sense of the complexity of human interaction - I guess it's the sociologist in me. :) Sorry if I overreach sometime. You are also right in observing that generalizations fall short because they don't always speak well to to every situation.
Newcomers who are born-again and have experienced conversion have new hearts. The problem is that they do not automatically have new minds. Our minds require more work and renewing.

Now imagine a newcomer that was raised aethiest or even raised in some other denomination with never hearing about any Anabaptist's teachings. They go to church and see some big issues. Their heart knows when there is problems but they lack the ability to communicate it rightly as their minds are not apapted to "spiritual" language. So they attempt to speak to the minister who has been doing this for 50+ years. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, rather they look at them as immature or not following the Spirit. The newcomer tries with errors that are happening in regards to not following the standards of the church by its own members to draw out that deeper meaning and get help... It fails because of these generalizations like posted above.

To be misunderstood is another expectation a newcomer should have.
I don't have to imagine...I was that newcomer at one point too.

I think there are two things at work here:

1) I believe you are saying that there is the possibility that a newcomer will see inconsistencies that those who have been in the church for years have grown blind too (the "Frog in the Kettle" if you will). The newcomer may also be freshly in touch with the Spirit in a way that may speak to or even convict the congregation of complacency or even wrongs it does't see or recognize. I think you are raising a good point - that those in the church should not to be dismissive of a newcomer - for God may be using them to being His message to the group. That's what I was getting at when, in my illustration, I said older drivers "can learn a few things about being conscientious from that teen driver as well." Those in the church also need to extend an extra measure of grace toward a new brother or sister who are just adjusting to the group. Their questioning may be their way of seeking to understand the "why" and "how" behind the standards a group has.

2) On the other hand, a newcomer needs to be patient, and recognize that some things are understood better with time and acculturation to the group. Sometimes understanding comes after willing submission not before. Newcomers also need to recognize that others in the congregation, regardless of their background or length of time in the church, are at various places and levels of maturity in their own spiritual journey - and that the church leaders are likely aware of this and are perhaps already working at correcting some of the inconsistencies and shortcomings that the newcomer sees in others. In other words, the role of a new convert is walk faithfully and in good conscience, to grow in their faith, and to contribute to the spiritual life of the congregation. They usually don't know the whole story, and reforming the congregation or policing the standards is primarily the role of the church leadership. Those who, in their zeal, try to take on a role not given them usually leave frustrated and disheartened. I've seen this happen a number of times.
0 x
Wade
Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:09 am
Affiliation: kingdom Christian

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Wade »

Dan Z wrote:
Wade wrote:I realize that often it seems you like to give generalizations about others, and you are good at articulating a convincing point - so I may fail in my attempt to convey what actually may be closer to the truth.
You're right Wade...I do like to generalize as a way of trying to make sense of the complexity of human interaction - I guess it's the sociologist in me. :) Sorry if I overreach sometime. You are also right in observing that generalizations fall short because they don't always speak well to to every situation.
Newcomers who are born-again and have experienced conversion have new hearts. The problem is that they do not automatically have new minds. Our minds require more work and renewing.

Now imagine a newcomer that was raised athiest or even raised in some other denomination with never hearing about any Anabaptist's teachings. They go to church and see some big issues. Their heart knows when there is problems but they lack the ability to communicate it rightly as their minds are not adapted to "spiritual" language. So they attempt to speak to the minister who has been doing this for 50+ years. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, rather they look at them as immature or not following the Spirit. The newcomer tries with errors that are happening in regards to not following the standards of the church by its own members to draw out that deeper meaning and get help... It fails because of these generalizations like posted above.

To be misunderstood is another expectation a newcomer should have.
I don't have to imagine...I was that newcomer at one point too.

I think there are two things at work here:

1) I believe you are saying that there is the possibility that a newcomer will see inconsistencies that those who have been in the church for years have grown blind too (the "Frog in the Kettle" if you will). The newcomer may also be freshly in touch with the Spirit in a way that may speak to or even convict the congregation of complacency or even wrongs it does't see or recognize. I think you are raising a good point - that those in the church should not to be dismissive of a newcomer - for God may be using them to being His message to the group. That's what I was getting at when, in my illustration, I said older drivers "can learn a few things about being conscientious from that teen driver as well." Those in the church also need to extend an extra measure of grace toward a new brother or sister who are just adjusting to the group. Their questioning may be their way of seeking to understand the "why" and "how" behind the standards a group has.

2) On the other hand, a newcomer needs to be patient, and recognize that some things are understood better with time and acculturation to the group. Sometimes understanding comes after willing submission bot before. Newcomers also need to recognize that others in the congregation, regardless of their background or length of time in the church, are at various places and levels of maturity in their own spiritual journey - and that the church leaders are likely aware of this and are perhaps already working at correcting some of the inconsistencies and shortcomings that the newcomer sees in others. In other words, the role of a new convert is walk faithfully and in good conscience, to grow in their faith, and to contribute to the spiritual life of the congregation. They usually don't know the whole story, and reforming the congregation or policing the standards is primarily the role of the church leadership. Those who, in their zeal, try to take on a role not given them usually leave frustrated and disheartened. I've seen this happen a number of times.
Thank you for your reply!

In regards to #1 - you are also right with your original post that this isn't always the case.

And #2 can be difficult - we couldn't afford standards so as time went on and instruction class was delayed and answers about baptism and membership were not answered, we grew more and more disillusioned with acceptance seeming to being tied to finances and/or ethnicity...
How does one articulate this without looking for pity?
Often confusion and disillusionment sets in and newcomers start looking around trying to grasp how they are different and what they are ignorant of; looking for answers of why they are not "measuring up." If more questions were answered this possibly could be lessened... And yes, patience from the newcomer too.
Since being a Christian is tied so closely with fellowship and love for the brethren, to forsake all and then also be rejected by a Mennonite group from membership is a blow that leaves the newcomer with zero support in relation to being part of a local body of believers... It is without the same closeness that I imagine a group shares together in communion.

Thank God for Christ! It is because of Him that we have reconciliation. And thank you who have reached out.
0 x
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Dan Z »

Wade wrote:And #2 can be difficult - we couldn't afford standards so as time went on and instruction class was delayed and answers about baptism and membership were not answered, we grew more and more disillusioned with acceptance seeming to being tied to finances and/or ethnicity...

How does one articulate this without looking for pity?

Often confusion and disillusionment sets in and newcomers start looking around trying to grasp how they are different and what they are ignorant of; looking for answers of why they are not "measuring up." If more questions were answered this possibly could be lessened... And yes, patience from the newcomer too.

Since being a Christian is tied so closely with fellowship and love for the brethren, to forsake all and then also be rejected by a Mennonite group from membership is a blow that leaves the newcomer with zero support in relation to being part of a local body of believers... It is without the same closeness that I imagine a group shares together in communion.
Not all plain churches are the same in this regard...and I think that many of the most insular ones are genuinely unaware of how difficult the cultural/ethnic hurdles can be for someone from the outside to overcome.

If I may ask, what is it you are looking for in a congregation? In other words, what has drawn you into relationship with the church in which you are struggling to find acceptance?
Thank God for Christ! It is because of Him that we have reconciliation.
AMEN!
0 x
Wade
Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:09 am
Affiliation: kingdom Christian

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Wade »

Dan Z wrote:
Wade wrote:And #2 can be difficult - we couldn't afford standards so as time went on and instruction class was delayed and answers about baptism and membership were not answered, we grew more and more disillusioned with acceptance seeming to being tied to finances and/or ethnicity...

How does one articulate this without looking for pity?

Often confusion and disillusionment sets in and newcomers start looking around trying to grasp how they are different and what they are ignorant of; looking for answers of why they are not "measuring up." If more questions were answered this possibly could be lessened... And yes, patience from the newcomer too.

Since being a Christian is tied so closely with fellowship and love for the brethren, to forsake all and then also be rejected by a Mennonite group from membership is a blow that leaves the newcomer with zero support in relation to being part of a local body of believers... It is without the same closeness that I imagine a group shares together in communion.
Not all plain churches are the same in this regard...and I think that many of the most insular ones are genuinely unaware of how difficult the cultural/ethnic hurdles can be for someone from the outside to overcome.

If I may ask, what is it you are looking for in a congregation? In other words, what has drawn you into relationship with the church in which you are struggling to find acceptance?
Location. :!:
First the only church teaching and practicing things like non-resistance was a Holdeman church an hour away from where we lived. The fellowship was nice but we struggled to find fitting in because most had big nice houses and new vehicles. Intimadating for someone missing church for weeks at a time because of vehicle breakdowns. And being told their church practices 5 years of proving before a newcomer can be a member.
With threats and angry voice messages to come home to after coming home from church from family upset at our radical changes, we looked to move.
We didn't know about the different groups or the differences between them but had read about Anabaptist's enough that I believed these were my kinfolk.

Since previously living very worldly we had a huge amount of debt. We looked and found cheap housing in Nova Scotia. We prayed and then I applied at a few jobs. We left it to the Lord and it was months later that we got a call from a headhunter.
My new job paid for our move and rent for three months so we felt this was God's answer. (And still believe God called us to this experience.)
The first day we showed up we went to the grocery store and somebody kept looking at us, and finally asked where we fellowshiped at? I remember being confused how he could tell... I was so used to my wife's covering by now I forgot the give away...
He invited us to the ultra-conservative church he attended, that we knew about already from my wife contacting Silas Martin and Cory Anderson to make sure there was a church nearby to where we were moving.
These contacts and the starting information we had about Anabaptist's came from us homeschooling.

Obviously the end result didn't fair well after 21months we left Nova Scotia. When we left I made phone calls and sent resumes set on moving to the same town where we attended that Holdeman church. There was also now an intermediate church that moved into the same town.
Well, God wouldn't have it that any jobs were available or at least none hired me. There is a big brewery their but I skipped applying there...
Because of knowing people when we stayed at my parents, a job came up that really wanted me and pushed to have me hired. I even told them we didn't want to stay in that town or work for a union... They still pushed to have me. When you have no money to even move if we got a job somewhere else and imposing on parents with no money to rent elsewhere, in a two bedroom house and 7 of us(at that time) in one of those bedrooms... I took the job.

There is lots more to all this and I love those in that intermediate but I cannot force my wife to move if there are things that make her uncomfortable. We are now 1.5 hours from these Mennonite churches.

I don't want a church to fit in for my liking, I want to fit in a church because it is where God has called us together to serve, grow and be a blessing in.

And when you try the two most conservative churches in the town where we live now (Catholic and independent Baptist) and other people's children are running around with toy guns, yelling about killing each other after service, while adults look on... I really am struggling that this where God wants us to be, but yet a way to fit in with a Mennonite Church hasn't worked out. It may yet? :)

The choices in BC are; Eastern, Nationwide, Holdeman, and Western.
But it isn't so easy just moving wherever we want to... Unfortunately after moving cross country and back with a less than desirable experience, can make it quite challenging to lead out in where to go, that can be made together as a family instead of me dictating and causing more stress.

It seemed easy looking at first after giving up so many things and seeking the Lord for a few years to just move and join, but it hasn't been that way.

Just trying to move forward now with being faithful wherever God has us. Praying He will build His church and make a way for us to have fellowship and friends to His liking.

I am afraid many poor Christians would love the chance to be part of a Mennonite Church out around this earth but just never truly have the opportunity... And when they hear about the feeling of close community, they believe and long for it dearly. But if it doesn't take place thank God He is their with them.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Hats Off »

My heart goes out to you. I would like to communicate more sometime.
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote:My heart goes out to you. I would like to communicate more sometime.
Likewise and we continue prayer for you and yours, Wade that you find the fellowship that is a blessing for you.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Post Reply