Standards vs Reality

[TeleBodyofChrist]

I am from a NMB. I joined a conservative Mennonite church with a set of standards that my family and I were expected to follow.

Well, needless to say I learned by and by that the standards we were supposed to uphold were not really being upheld in reality.

For example, we were not supposed to watch movies for entertainment however, we found out members were watching Jason Bourne. That movie is entertainment and a spy drama that can be graphic. I saw the movies before I joined so I know.

The theme was not to talk about it, or hide things that you were doing that did not match up to the standards. It took us years to discover this.

We could not understand how it seemed normal to present a facade to everyone but really believe something else. I mean in the meeting we had going over the standards no one voted to try to change anything. We voted how we felt, and then to see the same people who voted against doing something, doing it was frustrating.

Here we were giving up what we were used to, and then to find out we did not really need to... sigh.

This among other things lead to us eventually leaving as we did not want to teach our children to hide things, or develop the thinking, "I know we agreed to this but we can do it anyway just do not tell anyone about it."

I talked to some of my friends that were from a MB and they told me that unfortunately this goes on. They also said that it may be hard to avoid what happened with us as it does take years to see it.

For those of you in a church that has a set of standards how do you all deal with issues like this?
Are there two set of standards?
How do you avoid this issue when looking for a church?

[Wade]

When I have just simply asked about this reality that no one likes to talk about - I was told that I was judgemental.

Disillusionment is to be an eventual expected reality for the newcomer that is sincere and trusting...

[temporal1]

When I have just simply asked about this reality that no one likes to talk about - I was told that I was judgemental.

Disillusionment is to be an eventual expected reality for the newcomer that is sincere and trusting...

ultimately, it's important and constructive to really-really understand that humans are humans,
and to always keep that humility in every setting.

from what i witness and experience in life, when "this reality" is blurred, the doors open right up to falling into idol worship, a grave sin. we long for idols! there is something deep within us that wants idols.

thankfully, we must return, again+again, to "the" reality of one God, and, this is where Jesus wants His to be. our earthly disappointments can be short-lived, if we only allow them to be - 'cause, Jesus is ever there for us, awaiting our return.

how to keep "things in order," the right balance, no idol worship? .. long to keep Jesus at center; and, His are to encourage one another ..

1 Thessalonians 5:11
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.

11 Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.

12 But we ask you, brothers, to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the Lord and give you instruction.…

God uses disappointments+hardships to draw us closer to Him.

[Sudsy]

From another NMB who now attends an MB church.

I think you will find a certain amount of hypocrisy (play acting) that goes on in most churches. The flesh is prideful and wants to let on that it is better than it really is at heart. I think many of us can tell stories where Christians have been caught living a life different than the one they let on they are living or the one that they committed to in some local fellowships. I know when I operate in the flesh, I fail sometimes noticeable by others, sometimes not so.

One thing I believe we must acknowledge is that we all continue to sin (fall short) as believers in various ways and degrees. If I look for perfect adherence to scripture and/or some set a standards in others, I will be disappointed. Just as they might see my failures that I might not see.

Personally, I would not commit to or sign on to any set of local church standards unless they were worded in a way that allowed for spiritual growth and did not get into specific details beyond what scripture explicity states. I prefer the emphasis to be on the abundant life we have available to us rather than what we must give up. The giving up happens naturally when we walk in the Spirit as we lose all desire for those things. But that is how I chose to be part of a fellowship of believers and some don't see it that way.

The key I believe is to keep our eyes on Jesus the one and only perfect man and to accept that all of us are warring against our flesh and sometimes lose a specific skirmish. None of us are perfectly obedient and thank God, perfect obedience is not required to be a child of God. But if we are born from above, we have this desire to trust and obey and as the hymn goes 'for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus'.

[Soloist]

hair is something I'm particularly interested in... in other words the length. One thing I've found is that the covenant may say uncut hair but in practice some members do cut their hair and its more a length issue then it being uncut. That being said, if you ask why it isn't struck from the book the response I've heard is "well some of our members believe it to be uncut hair so we don't teach on it" For myself, I want to be able and willing to follow what I agree to. It really doesn't matter to me if every buddy else is subverting it if I'm wanting to join, I expect to follow it.

I can't recall who said it, but it sort of went like the mentality of "we say this, but allow room as long as it isn't blatantly against our standard" a slightly smaller bun isn't going to be noticed, but not wearing your headcovering or changing it would.
I personally believe this goes right along with the idea that "5% of the church going members are actually born again". I'll clarify that statement was in regard to churches in general not Anabaptist churches.

[Wade]

When I have just simply asked about this reality that no one likes to talk about - I was told that I was judgemental.

Disillusionment is to be an eventual expected reality for the newcomer that is sincere and trusting...

ultimately, it's important and constructive to really-really understand that humans are humans,
and to always keep that humility.

Does this mean that we just shouldn't trust them or take their word for what they say? This is what I mean - is that I trusted people and they just weren't honest about themselves. Seems like a lonely way to live to just not trust anyone...

from what i witness and experience in life, when "this reality" is blurred, the doors open right up to falling into idol worship, a grave sin. we long for idols! there is something deep within us that wants idols.

thankfully, we must return, again+again, to "the" reality of one God, and, this is where Jesus wants His to be. our earthly disappointments can be short-lived, if we only allow them to be - 'cause, Jesus is ever there for us, awaiting our return.

how to keep "things in order," the right balance, no idol worship? .. long to keep Jesus at center; and, His are to encourage one another ..

1 Thessalonians 5:11
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.

11 Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.

12 But we ask you, brothers, to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the Lord and give you instruction.…

God uses disappointments+hardships to draw us closer to Him.

And for some reason it is the people that you would least expect, that God uses in this way...

[Wade]

From another NMB who now attends an MB church.

I think you will find a certain amount of hypocrisy (play acting) that goes on in most churches. The flesh is prideful and wants to let on that it is better than it really is at heart. I think many of us can tell stories where Christians have been caught living a life different than the one they let on they are living or the one that they committed to in some local fellowships. I know when I operate in the flesh, I fail sometimes noticeable by others, sometimes not so.

One thing I believe we must acknowledge is that we all continue to sin (fall short) as believers in various ways and degrees. If I look for perfect adherence to scripture and/or some set a standards in others, I will be disappointed. Just as they might see my failures that I might not see.

Personally, I would not commit to or sign on to any set of local church standards unless they were worded in a way that allowed for spiritual growth and did not get into specific details beyond what scripture explicity states. I prefer the emphasis to be on the abundant life we have available to us rather than what we must give up. The giving up happens naturally when we walk in the Spirit as we lose all desire for those things. But that is how I chose to be part of a fellowship of believers and some don't see it that way.

The key I believe is to keep our eyes on Jesus the one and only perfect man and to accept that all of us are warring against our flesh and sometimes lose a specific skirmish. None of us are perfectly obedient and thank God, perfect obedience is not required to be a child of God. But if we are born from above, we have this desire to trust and obey and as the hymn goes 'for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus'.

I agree with most of this but what does this do for the newcomers and relating to what is said in the OP?

And what do those of us who are just rejected from membership with no answers of reasons why?

Or are rejected because they are honest?

[Sudsy]

From another NMB who now attends an MB church.

I think you will find a certain amount of hypocrisy (play acting) that goes on in most churches. The flesh is prideful and wants to let on that it is better than it really is at heart. I think many of us can tell stories where Christians have been caught living a life different than the one they let on they are living or the one that they committed to in some local fellowships. I know when I operate in the flesh, I fail sometimes noticeable by others, sometimes not so.

One thing I believe we must acknowledge is that we all continue to sin (fall short) as believers in various ways and degrees. If I look for perfect adherence to scripture and/or some set a standards in others, I will be disappointed. Just as they might see my failures that I might not see.

Personally, I would not commit to or sign on to any set of local church standards unless they were worded in a way that allowed for spiritual growth and did not get into specific details beyond what scripture explicity states. I prefer the emphasis to be on the abundant life we have available to us rather than what we must give up. The giving up happens naturally when we walk in the Spirit as we lose all desire for those things. But that is how I chose to be part of a fellowship of believers and some don't see it that way.

The key I believe is to keep our eyes on Jesus the one and only perfect man and to accept that all of us are warring against our flesh and sometimes lose a specific skirmish. None of us are perfectly obedient and thank God, perfect obedience is not required to be a child of God. But if we are born from above, we have this desire to trust and obey and as the hymn goes 'for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus'.

I agree with most of this but what does this do for the newcomers and relating to what is said in the OP?

I was trying to say that a newcomer should not expect a pure level of obedience and that our flesh will do things, like hide the truth about how we really live. I would explain to children that these skirmishes between the flesh and the Spirit is not always won and the flesh is very deceiving as it is heavily influenced by the greatest of all deceivers/liars, satan himself. And sometimes people want so much to be part of a group they tell a lie right up front when becoming a member. They really think they can fool others where and when they need to.

And what do those of us who are just rejected from membership with no answers of reasons why?

If I was rejected from membership with no reasons why, it would not be a fellowship I would care to be a part of as this kind of dishonest approach to qualifying for membership smacks of not treating others as one would care to be treated themselves. Something Jesus spoke out against. This action is not one of following Jesus, right ? Time to seek a different group to fellowship with.

Or are rejected because they are honest?

Depends on what they are being honest about. If they are perceived as doing more damage than good to the fellowship by their honesty, then they should protect the fellowship. In any case, this should be made clear. For instance, if someone was being a busy-body or a tattle tale about other's sinning or was admitting to their own struggles in some sin area, it should be made clear that this needs correction to be recognized as a member.

[Hats Off]

Do you understand the terms "defacto" and "dejure"? These are legal terms; dejure is what the law actually says but defacto is what we accept in fact. These concepts apply in law and unfortunately also in church standards. We have the dejure (written or oral) standard, but in fact we do accept considerable deviation from that standard. I have argued that even for our own people, we need to say what we mean and mean what we say. We create confusion for our young people or other newcomers. But at the same time we also want room for some tolerance. My father used to say that no leader wants to say that a certain change came about on his watch so the dejure standard does not change while the defacto standard does. I am trying to explain, not excuse. Very few leaders will admit to this situation so if you see things that appear inconsistent, ask some lay member who you have had reason to respect.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

Then would you say there is a double standard for newcomers vs MBs?

The problem I had was we were made to feel that we would have to completely conform to the church and the way they did things. Things we did not think were a big deal were a big deal to them and the standards. Such as Internet, slash pockets on pants, things we never had to think about before were almost sinful in their eyes.

If we showed reluctance or questioned, it was as if they felt we were not spiritually mature enough or would make statements like, "God will lead you to this way of thinking".

We found out later they excommunicated for the standards not being followed a certain way. However, some preference was given as to who actually faced consequences.

I know people are not perfect, but I do not understand not being honest with people.