Standards vs Reality

[TeleBodyofChrist]

Do you understand the terms "defacto" and "dejure"? These are legal terms; dejure is what the law actually says but defacto is what we accept in fact. These concepts apply in law and unfortunately also in church standards. We have the dejure (written or oral) standard, but in fact we do accept considerable deviation from that standard. I have argued that even for our own people, we need to say what we mean and mean what we say. We create confusion for our young people or other newcomers. But at the same time we also want room for some tolerance. My father used to say that no leader wants to say that a certain change came about on his watch so the dejure standard does not change while the defacto standard does. I am trying to explain, not excuse. Very few leaders will admit to this situation so if you see things that appear inconsistent, ask some lay member who you have had reason to respect.

It is the confusion I worry about. I have seen where a church was not allowed to wear jeans then they voted to allow jeans. Immediately, every man of the church was wearing jeans every day except in fellowship. I am talking about modest jeans not skinny jeans. What is wrong with jeans? What message does that send to children when one day something is forbidden, but the next allowed?

I have noticed that the retention of the youth at the church I used to go to is low. I think this might be one of the reasons why.

[Hats Off]

In our situation I don't think it is a double standard but one that is not well articulated. If a church excommunicates because of something like a dress standard, I would suggest it was because the person being excommunicated showed a bad attitude such as unwillingness to comply. The problem them becomes disobedience rather than failing to keep the dress standard.

[Josh]

One solution is to stop going to a church with wildly inconsistent behaviour and no disicipline and attend a congregation with more consistent discipline and more adherence to standards even though they have fewer actual written standards.

Eg one place mandated cape dress. But conservative youth wore skirts and shirts urging the week and liberal ones wore yoga pants.

But a more consistent church mandates a style some consider "less modest" than cape dress but it is worn far more consistently by everyone.

One church said no TV yet lots of people watched Netflix all over the place. A more consistent church is committed to saying "Video shall only be watched for an acceptable use" and brothers' meetings discuss if eg watching employer required training videos is OK.

Of course nothing will fix a membership full of rotten hearts who just want to be of the world.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

In our situation I don't think it is a double standard but one that is not well articulated. If a church excommunicates because of something like a dress standard, I would suggest it was because the person being excommunicated showed a bad attitude such as unwillingness to comply. The problem them becomes disobedience rather than failing to keep the dress standard.

Unfortunately, at this church it was not. Certain people were not disciplined because of who they were.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

One solution is to stop going to a church with wildly inconsistent behaviour and no disicipline and attend a congregation with more consistent discipline and more adherence to standards even though they have fewer actual written standards.

Eg one place mandated cape dress. But conservative youth wore skirts and shirts urging the week and liberal ones wore yoga pants.

But a more consistent church mandates a style some consider "less modest" than cape dress but it is worn far more consistently by everyone.

One church said no TV yet lots of people watched Netflix all over the place. A more consistent church is committed to saying "Video shall only be watched for an acceptable use" and brothers' meetings discuss if eg watching employer required training videos is OK.

Of course nothing will fix a membership full of rotten hearts who just want to be of the world.

We no longer attend there. We do not want to be church hoppers, and that is why we asked questions before joining. It took years to see it all, and I wish there was a way to know before spending years somewhere. I really do not know what we could have done differently as we were honest with them and thought they were being upfront with us.

Again, some of my MB friends say this is common and they just move to another fellowship when they realize it. We are trying to find a church home to raise our children.

The negative outcome of this is we probably will stay visitors instead of joining. We just want to fellowship and the Bible is the standard we want to follow.

I keep praying for the Lord to lead us, and know He had a purpose in this.

[Wade]

One solution is to stop going to a church with wildly inconsistent behaviour and no disicipline and attend a congregation with more consistent discipline and more adherence to standards even though they have fewer actual written standards.

Eg one place mandated cape dress. But conservative youth wore skirts and shirts urging the week and liberal ones wore yoga pants.

But a more consistent church mandates a style some consider "less modest" than cape dress but it is worn far more consistently by everyone.

One church said no TV yet lots of people watched Netflix all over the place. A more consistent church is committed to saying "Video shall only be watched for an acceptable use" and brothers' meetings discuss if eg watching employer required training videos is OK.

Of course nothing will fix a membership full of rotten hearts who just want to be of the world.

We no longer attend there. We do not want to be church hoppers, and that is why we asked questions before joining. It took years to see it all, and I wish there was a way to know before spending years somewhere. I really do not know what we could have done differently as we were honest with them and thought they were being upfront with us.

Again, some of my MB friends say this is common and they just move to another fellowship when they realize it. We are trying to find a church home to raise our children.

The negative outcome of this is we probably will stay visitors instead of joining. We just want to fellowship and the Bible is the standard we want to follow.

I keep praying for the Lord to lead us, and know He had a purpose in this.

You have stated much of our experience and thoughts as well.

[Josh]

In our situation I don't think it is a double standard but one that is not well articulated. If a church excommunicates because of something like a dress standard, I would suggest it was because the person being excommunicated showed a bad attitude such as unwillingness to comply. The problem them becomes disobedience rather than failing to keep the dress standard.

Unfortunately, at this church it was not. Certain people were not disciplined because of who they were.

Avoid such places.

Believe me, plenty of healthy plain Anabaptist
churches do exist - there are Amish ones, Brethren ones, Hutterite ones, Mennonite ones, Apostolic Christian ones, Romanian Pentecostal ones, Russian Baptist ones, Nigerian Brethren ones, Haitian CGC (Holdeman) ones, and probably a bunch more I don't know about. Some of these believers have been tested by fire, persecution, and death in the last few years. Others are living quiet, undisturbed lives yet try their best to be faithful.

And there are congregations that have zero ethnic Anabaptist people in them. I think there are real followers of Christ in those places. Of course, no Anabaptist cultural background presents challenges too, but it's worth considering. The folks in Boston are trying to do that, and the folks at Homestead Heritage in Texas are trying to as well.

I would caution against focusing on outward things and instead hunt for real spiritual life: do people serve each other and serve broken, worldly, sinful people who don't deserve help but are the kind of people Jesus served? Do members confess their sins to one another? Does each brother and sister strive to live a holy life when nobody else is watching?

To find such people, live such a life yourself and seek to serve your Anabaptist Brethren. You will find many others like you, drawn to co-labour in continuing Christ's work to bring healing and restoration to his father's creation.

[temporal1]

Do you understand the terms "defacto" and "dejure"?
These are legal terms; dejure is what the law actually says but defacto is what we accept in fact. These concepts apply in law and unfortunately also in church standards.

We have the dejure (written or oral) standard, but in fact we do accept considerable deviation from that standard.

I have argued that even for our own people, we need to say what we mean and mean what we say.
We create confusion for our young people or other newcomers.
But at the same time we also want room for some tolerance.

My father used to say that no leader wants to say that a certain change came about on his watch so the dejure standard does not change while the defacto standard does.

I am trying to explain, not excuse.
Very few leaders will admit to this situation so if you see things that appear inconsistent, ask some lay member who you have had reason to respect.

In our situation I don't think it is a double standard but one that is not well articulated.
If a church excommunicates because of something like a dress standard, I would suggest it was because the person being excommunicated showed a bad attitude such as unwillingness to comply.
The problem [then] becomes disobedience rather than failing to keep the dress standard.

Hats Off, i just want to take a moment to say how much i appreciate your posts. you have a gift for communicating a perspective that is not often available to (us, who are NMB.) so helpful, and important. it takes time to understand in context, and in perspective. life is a journey, eventually, a sum of all parts; somehow, no two identical.

so glad you found this forum and are willing to share.

[Hats Off]

In our situation I don't think it is a double standard but one that is not well articulated. If a church excommunicates because of something like a dress standard, I would suggest it was because the person being excommunicated showed a bad attitude such as unwillingness to comply. The problem them becomes disobedience rather than failing to keep the dress standard.

Unfortunately, at this church it was not. Certain people were not disciplined because of who they were.

Unfortunately you are correct. We have a tendency to cover up or overlook a) because of an unreasonably high view of ordained leadership and b) because of respect of persons "they are blue bloods."

[Hats Off]

Hats Off, i just want to take a moment to say how much i appreciate your posts. you have a gift for communicating a perspective that is not often available to (us, who are NMB.) so helpful, and important. it takes time to understand in context, and in perspective. life is a journey, eventually, a sum of all parts; somehow, no two identical.

so glad you found this forum and are willing to share.

Unfortunately, one of the reasons I have the perspective that I do, is because of some significant disappointments we have had with our own church. We have also walked fairly closely with several NMBs who spent some time with us but left without having membership. And then like several others on the forum I am an "older" man who has experienced a lot of life.