What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:Did historic Anabaptists actively embrace homosexuality and transsexuality? I think the strong desire to embrace the sexual morality of the left wing is something entirely new to Anabaptism.
I don't consider this part of historic Anabaptism or historic Christianity.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23827
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:Did historic Anabaptists actively embrace homosexuality and transsexuality? I think the strong desire to embrace the sexual morality of the left wing is something entirely new to Anabaptism.
I don't consider this part of historic Anabaptism or historic Christianity.
I don't either, and I consider it analogous to those who strongly embrace God-and-country type stuff over in the conservative, evangelical, or Old Order wings.

But once someone identifies more with those things than Anabaptist values of strong sexual morality and strong commitment to nonviolence, I think it's safe to say the person involved lacks Anabaptist values anymore.

They do often still have an ethnic background and parts of a culture that arose from centuries of commitment to strong morality and nonviolence.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:But once someone identifies more with those things than Anabaptist values of strong sexual morality and strong commitment to nonviolence, I think it's safe to say the person involved lacks Anabaptist values anymore.

They do often still have an ethnic background and parts of a culture that arose from centuries of commitment to strong morality and nonviolence.
I agree. And part of the problem is seeking to become Anabaptists or Mennonites, rather than seeking to become true disciples of Jesus Christ. After all, the early Anabaptists were all about stripping away all that old religion that was getting in the way of directly following the New Testament. Modern Anabaptists and Mennonites are often very eager to preserve centuries of old religion in our own tradition, and can sometimes seem to treat tradition as authoritative. Religious tradition and ethnicity simply do not have the clarity and transforming power of Scripture, if we put our trust in them and make them our main focus, we get further and further from our source.

Those Evangelicals who stress discipleship and seeking the council of Scripture directly look a lot like the early Anabaptist in that way, even if they miss out on many other aspects.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I don't either, and I consider it analogous to those who strongly embrace God-and-country type stuff over in the conservative, evangelical, or Old Order wings.
Or even those who have stressed externals to the point that wearing the wrong style of head covering makes you suspect. We can get off track in so many ways.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What do old order, moderate-conservative, & liberal Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Hats Off »

silentreader wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Here on MN we tend to use term like Old Order, Moderate/Conservative/Plain, and Non-Plain/Progressive/Liberal to describe the three main types of Anabaptists. Sociologist Donald Kraybill uses the terms Traditional, Transitional, and Transformational to describe these three main groupings.

So that we're all on the same page in our discussion, here is an excerpt from a Christianity Today article he wrote in 2004 that defines these three groupings of Anabaptists.
Donald Kraybill wrote: Traditional: The traditional groups emphasize the moral authority of the church over the individual. They are predominately rural, although many are not farmers; most are satisfied with an eighth-grade education, and they do not engage in evangelism. With large families, these groups grow through "biological evangelism" rather than new recruits. They are more interested in preserving religious practices than in changing the larger world. With minimal bureaucracy, traditional groups emphasize informal social relationships—fellowship above policy, oral over written communication, friendship over proper doctrine.

Transitional: In broad strokes, the transitional groups come from two directions. Some have left Old Order roots, but others have withdrawn from transformational groups. Roughly 13 percent (70,000) of the Anabaptist world straddles transitional ground. The transitional groups speak English and own automobiles, but they require their members, especially women, to wear distinctive clothing. Although transitional groups share a conservative worldview with traditional groups, they generally interact more with the outside world and are more likely to engage in mission activities.

Unlike traditional groups, transitionals have Sunday schools, youth meetings, and formal programs of Christian education. Their church buildings tend to be fairly plain and they rarely use musical instruments in worship. Lay ministers are usually selected from within the local congregation and do not have professional training or receive a salary. These churches permit new technology but typically forbid television; some limit world wide web access to business uses only. Many members complete high school but higher education is discouraged. Children from these groups typically attend private church schools.

Transformational: Transformational groups seek to transform the larger culture in a variety of ways, including personal evangelism, church planting, overseas missions, prison ministries, international relief and development, social justice, peacemaking, and conflict mediation.

Transformers work in a wide array of jobs as surgeons, mechanics, nurses, lawyers, educators, carpenters, therapists, stockbrokers, managers, and business owners. Most of the members of these groups have televisions and use the world wide web as well as other forms of mass media. About two thirds (360,000) of the Anabaptists in the United States are in the transformational camp.

Transformational groups show many different expressions of Christian faith and piety. They usually grant individual conscience priority over the collective authority of the church. Reflecting the plurality of modern culture, these groups differ on a host of issues—the ordination of women, homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment, political involvement, peacemaking, and others. Some groups are ardent evangelicals, while others accent peacemaking and social justice. Still other churches try to weave all these strands together.

Many transforming congregations employ professional staff—pastors, musicians, Christian educators, and youth leaders. Some of them meet in modern facilities with well-appointed sanctuaries, fellowship halls, and multiple-purpose gymnasiums. Transformational groups also operate national programs and organizations with bureaucratic features—publishing houses, mission boards, colleges, and service agencies.
And yet in the second sentence of the Transitional segment he uses the term Old Order,...???
Don has to use our terms because his terms are not that well understood!!
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Hats Off »

Josh wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:Can we admit that many who claim the title "Anabaptist" fall far short of and are even in some cases hostile to the spiritual principles and practices of the historic Anabaptist?
Yes, and that's one good example of what old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common. We fall short of and are hostile to different principles and practices, for the most part.

And "the historic Anabaptist" probably doesn't exist. Each of us has a tendency to project our understandings back onto some imaginary "historic Anabaptist" that fails to recognize the differences among even early Anabaptists. That's another thing we have in common.
Did historic Anabaptists actively embrace homosexuality and transsexuality? I think the strong desire to embrace the sexual morality of the left wing is something entirely new to Anabaptism.
I would suggest this has nothing to do with or in common with any form of "historic Anabaptism."
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Hats Off »

We attended a conference where there was a mixture of many different Anabaptist groups along with Baptists and Brethern.
The times of worship included a good amount of singing, always with piano accompaniment. On the last day of the conference, the music director who was not Anabaptist, pointed out that Mennonite singing was something very special and that as a gift to him, he requested that we sing one of his favourite songs without the piano.

From what I have experienced, the love of congregational or group singing is something that we share across a large part of the Anabaptist spectrum.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Hats Off »

A number of years ago we attended a conference on "Ritual in Anabaptist Life." During that conference, I noted a number of things that the various branches of Anabaptism have in common. One speaker noted that they used to kneel for prayer, then they stood for prayer, then they sat for prayer. He noted that at Manhattan Mennonite they have gone back to kneeling for prayer.

After one session there was an opportunity for comments/questions. Susan Biesicker suggested that there is a need for being accountable to each other, to brothers and sisters in the church. This concept of accountability to the brotherhood is probably common across the entire spectrum.

The conference, held at a college in Michigan was sponsored by Peter Blum, a Mennonite. He had a short pony tail, something I would have loved to cut off for him but I in typical non-resistance fashion, I worked at overlooking this non-typical Anabaptist trait. Later, we visited with Peter's wife and her sister, who asked if we were doing anything more in Michigan. Yes, we said, we stopped at friends in the the thumb area of Michigan on our way down and would do so again on our way home. Oh, they said, they have cousins in that area. So we played the Mennonite game - and discovered that the cousins were good friends of ours.

A non-Mennonite who came to teach in a modern Mennonite institution commented that when her son was sick, her Mennonite co-workers responded in a way she wasn't used to. I think that is another thing we have in common, our response in times of disaster, whether on a local or a national level. We work through MDS, MCC, CAM or other national disaster response organizations, or just do the work on a very small scale in our won neighbourhood. Another thing she loved about the Mennonite church she became a part of was the time spent in fellowship at potluck or carry-in meals and while playing dutch blitz.
0 x
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2651
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Dan Z »

Over a 30+ year period, I've had the privilege of "swimming" in many of the streams of contemporary Anabaptism including extended involvement with churches from Franconia, Lancaster, Ohio & Virginia conferences of the Mennonite Church, plus CMC, BMA, Beachy, Charity, Bruderhof and unaffiliated. Of course, my contact goes much broader on a personal friendship/acquaintance level, reaching across the spectrum from Old Orders to the most progressive Anabaptists.

Anyway, we tend to harp on our distinctions, but I think the common ground may surprise some of those who haven't circulated widely...across the Anabaptist spectrum I've seen many similarities and common themes. Here are some:
  • Communion & (often) Feet-Washing together - practiced only a few times a year, approached soberly and often with an associated call to a time of preparation.
    Two-Kingdom Theology - this takes various forms of course, and various degrees of separation, but it is present throughout, including a near-universal distance from the patriotism and civil religion that is common in many other traditions.
    Christocentrism - A special focus on the importance of the teachings and example of Christ as Lord (especially the Sermon on the Mount) and secondarily the New Testament church.
    Discipleship - Anabaptists are people of action, more interested in how faith is lived out.
    Community - Or as Simon Schrock would call it, "one-anothering" - An emphasis on mutual aid, the gathered church, sharing of time and resources in moments of need, group discernment, regular group fellowship meals & events.
    Disaster Relief & Humanitarian Sharing - Whether through MCC, MDS, CAM or whatever, Anabaptists across the spectrum are strongly inclined to help those in need both in the US and abroad, through poverty or disaster, giving both time and treasure.
    Servant Leadership - Humble and soft-spoken leaders are the norm, addressed by first name, often chosen from the immediate faith community. Plural part-time pastoral leadership is common as well.
    Simplicity - Whether in the family garden or church-house decor, Anabaptists tend to value simplicity of life and behavior.
    Suffering/Surrenderedness - Perhaps it is the shared history of the Martyrs Mirror (or the Hutterian Chronicles), but the idea that suffering and personal sacrifice is to be expected as an honorable part of the Christian experience.
    Peace/Non-Resistance - Across the spectrum there is the general understanding that Christ is the Prince of Peace, and he calls his followers to enemy love and cheek turning.
    Voluntary Service - This may have had it roots in the alternate service during war time, but it is still an expectation across the Anabaptist spectrum that young people give some of their time to Christian service, often in a cross-cultural setting.
    Vocal Music - Music is important in the Anabaptist tradition especially the focus on vocal (a-capella) singing, harmonizing as a gathered church.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5859
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Sudsy »

Dan Z wrote:Over a 30+ year period, I've had the privilege of "swimming" in many of the streams of contemporary Anabaptism including extended involvement with churches from Franconia, Lancaster & Virginia conferences of the Mennonite Church, CMC, BMA, Beachy, Charity, Bruderhof and unaffiliated. Of course, my contact goes much broader on a personal friendship/acquaintance level, reaching across the spectrum from Old Orders to the most progressive Anabaptists.

Anyway, we tend to harp on our distinctions, but I think the common ground may surprise some of those who haven't circulated widely...across the Anabaptist spectrum I've seen many similarities and common themes. Here are some:
  • Communion & (often) Feet-Washing together - practiced only a few times a year, approached soberly and often with an associated call to a time of preparation.
    Two-Kingdom Theology - this takes various forms of course, and various degrees of separation, but it is present throughout, including a near-universal distance from the patriotism and civil religion that is common in many other traditions.
    Christocentrism - A special focus on the importance of the teachings and example of Christ as Lord (especially the Sermon on the Mount) and secondarily the New Testament church.
    Discipleship - Anabaptists are people of action, more interested in how faith is lived out.
    Community - Or as Simon Schrock would call it, "one-anothering" - An emphasis on mutual aid, the gathered church, sharing of time and resources in moments of need, group discernment, regular group fellowship meals & events.
    Disaster Relief & Humanitarian Sharing - Whether through MCC, MDS, CAM or whatever, Anabaptists across the spectrum are strongly inclined to help those in need both in the US and abroad, through poverty or disaster, giving both time and treasure.
    Servant Leadership - Humble and soft-spoken leaders are the norm, addressed by first name, often chosen from the immediate faith community. Plural part-time pastoral leadership is common as well.
    Simplicity - Whether in the family garden or church-house decor, Anabaptists tend to value simplicity of life and behavior.
    Suffering/Surrenderedness - Perhaps it is the shared history of the Martyrs Mirror (or the Hutterian Chronicles), but the idea that suffering and personal sacrifice is to be expected as an honorable part of the Christian experience.
    Peace/Non-Resistance - Across the spectrum there is the general understanding that Christ is the Prince of Peace, and he calls his followers to enemy love and cheek turning.
    Voluntary Service - This may have had it roots in the alternate service during war time, but it is still an expectation across the Anabaptist spectrum that young people give some of their time to Christian service, often in a cross-cultural setting.
    Vocal Music - Music is important in the Anabaptist tradition especially the focus on vocal (a-capella) singing, harmonizing as a gathered church.
There are at least 2 Anabaptist churches in our city that I am familiar with that in some of these areas are not so similar. Those would be in the areas of foot washings (not practised), communion with no prep is practised open and monthly, no obvious soft spoken leaders, not so simple living (many are quite wealthy with big homes and new cars, elaborate churches with gyms and big kitchens and youth centers,etc) and music with lots of instrumentation and few songs that accommodate harmony. I guess these would be considered the far left when it comes to Anabaptism and closer to modern day Evangelical practise. From the little I know of the many other Anabaptist kinds in our area, I think your description is quite true from observing what I can see from the outside.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Post Reply