What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Dan Z
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What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Dan Z »

So...we spend a lot of time discussing how (conservative) Anabaptists are different from evangelicals or Catholics. We also spend a lot of time discussing how Anabaptists differ from each other (liberal, moderate-conservative, old order). I think we do this often to validate our own position - and that's OK for the most part. We need to know why we hold to what we do over and opposed to those who don't hold the same viewpoint.

However...I think it would be interesting for once to discuss what we Anabaptists across the spectrum have in common with one another.

We Anabaptists are spiritual kinfolk - born of the same historical parents in the radical reformation. So, even though we have drifted apart in many ways, in what ways do you think our common DNA present itself across the spectrum of Anabaptism?

To help facilitate discussion clarity, I'd like to start by keeping our focus on Anabaptism as divided into three main components: Old Order, conservative/plain, progressive/non-plain.
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Dan Z
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Re: What do old order, moderate-conservative, & liberal Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Dan Z »

Here on MN we tend to use term like Old Order, Moderate/Conservative/Plain, and Non-Plain/Progressive/Liberal to describe the three main types of Anabaptists. Sociologist Donald Kraybill uses the terms Traditional, Transitional, and Transformational to describe these three main groupings.

So that we're all on the same page in our discussion, here is an excerpt from a Christianity Today article he wrote in 2004 that defines these three groupings of Anabaptists.
Donald Kraybill wrote: Traditional: The traditional groups emphasize the moral authority of the church over the individual. They are predominately rural, although many are not farmers; most are satisfied with an eighth-grade education, and they do not engage in evangelism. With large families, these groups grow through "biological evangelism" rather than new recruits. They are more interested in preserving religious practices than in changing the larger world. With minimal bureaucracy, traditional groups emphasize informal social relationships—fellowship above policy, oral over written communication, friendship over proper doctrine.

Transitional: In broad strokes, the transitional groups come from two directions. Some have left Old Order roots, but others have withdrawn from transformational groups. Roughly 13 percent (70,000) of the Anabaptist world straddles transitional ground. The transitional groups speak English and own automobiles, but they require their members, especially women, to wear distinctive clothing. Although transitional groups share a conservative worldview with traditional groups, they generally interact more with the outside world and are more likely to engage in mission activities.

Unlike traditional groups, transitionals have Sunday schools, youth meetings, and formal programs of Christian education. Their church buildings tend to be fairly plain and they rarely use musical instruments in worship. Lay ministers are usually selected from within the local congregation and do not have professional training or receive a salary. These churches permit new technology but typically forbid television; some limit world wide web access to business uses only. Many members complete high school but higher education is discouraged. Children from these groups typically attend private church schools.

Transformational: Transformational groups seek to transform the larger culture in a variety of ways, including personal evangelism, church planting, overseas missions, prison ministries, international relief and development, social justice, peacemaking, and conflict mediation.

Transformers work in a wide array of jobs as surgeons, mechanics, nurses, lawyers, educators, carpenters, therapists, stockbrokers, managers, and business owners. Most of the members of these groups have televisions and use the world wide web as well as other forms of mass media. About two thirds (360,000) of the Anabaptists in the United States are in the transformational camp.

Transformational groups show many different expressions of Christian faith and piety. They usually grant individual conscience priority over the collective authority of the church. Reflecting the plurality of modern culture, these groups differ on a host of issues—the ordination of women, homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment, political involvement, peacemaking, and others. Some groups are ardent evangelicals, while others accent peacemaking and social justice. Still other churches try to weave all these strands together.

Many transforming congregations employ professional staff—pastors, musicians, Christian educators, and youth leaders. Some of them meet in modern facilities with well-appointed sanctuaries, fellowship halls, and multiple-purpose gymnasiums. Transformational groups also operate national programs and organizations with bureaucratic features—publishing houses, mission boards, colleges, and service agencies.
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:So...we spend a lot of time discussing how (conservative) Anabaptists are different from evangelicals or Catholics. We also spend a lot of time discussing how Anabaptists differ from each other (liberal, moderate-conservative, old order). I think we do this often to validate our own position - and that's OK for the most part. We need to know why we hold to what we do over and opposed to those who don't hold the same viewpoint.

However...I think it would be interesting for once to discuss what we Anabaptists across the spectrum have in common with one another.

We Anabaptists are spiritual kinfolk - born of the same historical parents in the radical reformation. So, even though we have drifted apart in many ways, in what ways do you think our common DNA present itself across the spectrum of Anabaptism?

To help facilitate discussion clarity, I'd like to start by keeping our focus on Anabaptism as divided into three main components: Old Order, conservative/plain, progressive/non-plain.
:clap: :up:
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Josh »

Of note is that Kraybill's numbers are already out of date just 13 years later, based in the numbers in Who Are The Plain Anabaptists? (Anderson 2013), Traditionalists are now the dominant group. Transisitionalists remain small, under 20%. Transformationalists continue to shrink, haemorrhaging numbers to either generic evangelical groups or to "nones" where people just don't attend church and identify with a religious group at all.

It is of note that the groups that claim to believe a lot in inclusion and evangelism can't get their numbers to grow, whilst the group that doesn't continues to experience growth, and has a wide swath of Western people thinking they wish they could somehow "be Amish".

Anyhow, back on topic.
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by JimFoxvog »

I think we would agree on the main points of the Confession of Faith in an Anabaptist Perspective (online at http://mennoniteusa.org/confession-of-faith/)

Here's a list of the articles:
Confession of Faith in an Anabaptist Perspective wrote: Article 1. God
Article 2. Jesus Christ
Article 3. Holy Spirit
Article 4. Scripture
Article 5. Creation and Divine Providence
Article 6. Creation and Calling of Human Beings
Article 7. Sin
Article 8. Salvation
Article 9. The Church of Jesus
Article 10. The Church in Mission
Article 11. Baptism
Article 12. The Lord’s Supper
Article 13. Foot Washing
Article 14. Discipline in the Church
Article 15. Ministry and Leadership
Article 16. Church Order and Unity
Article 17. Discipleship and the Christian Life
Article 18. Spirituality
Article 19. Marriage
Article 20. Truth
Article 21. Christian Stewardship
Article 22. Peace, Justice, and Nonresistance
Article 23. Church’s Relation to Government and Society
Article 24. The Reign of God
There would be a few details that we might quibble about. For example, a small part of Article 23 says
We may participate in government or other institutions of society only in ways that do not violate the love and holiness taught by Christ and do not compromise our loyalty to Christ. We witness to the nations by being that “city on a hill” which demonstrates the way of Christ. We also witness by being ambassadors for Christ, calling the nations (and all persons and institutions) to move toward justice, peace, and compassion for all people. In so doing, we seek the welfare of the city to which God has sent us.
But even most of this article seems something most of us would have in common.

The Old Order and Conservative groups would add more points, and the progressives would say it's OK to not agree with everything and some would get rid of parts of Article 19, but we have a whole lot of commonality. Focusing on differences makes more lively conversation, but it is important to me to focus on the basic unity.
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Re: What do old order, moderate-conservative, & liberal Anabaptists have in common?

Post by silentreader »

Dan Z wrote:Here on MN we tend to use term like Old Order, Moderate/Conservative/Plain, and Non-Plain/Progressive/Liberal to describe the three main types of Anabaptists. Sociologist Donald Kraybill uses the terms Traditional, Transitional, and Transformational to describe these three main groupings.

So that we're all on the same page in our discussion, here is an excerpt from a Christianity Today article he wrote in 2004 that defines these three groupings of Anabaptists.
Donald Kraybill wrote: Traditional: The traditional groups emphasize the moral authority of the church over the individual. They are predominately rural, although many are not farmers; most are satisfied with an eighth-grade education, and they do not engage in evangelism. With large families, these groups grow through "biological evangelism" rather than new recruits. They are more interested in preserving religious practices than in changing the larger world. With minimal bureaucracy, traditional groups emphasize informal social relationships—fellowship above policy, oral over written communication, friendship over proper doctrine.

Transitional: In broad strokes, the transitional groups come from two directions. Some have left Old Order roots, but others have withdrawn from transformational groups. Roughly 13 percent (70,000) of the Anabaptist world straddles transitional ground. The transitional groups speak English and own automobiles, but they require their members, especially women, to wear distinctive clothing. Although transitional groups share a conservative worldview with traditional groups, they generally interact more with the outside world and are more likely to engage in mission activities.

Unlike traditional groups, transitionals have Sunday schools, youth meetings, and formal programs of Christian education. Their church buildings tend to be fairly plain and they rarely use musical instruments in worship. Lay ministers are usually selected from within the local congregation and do not have professional training or receive a salary. These churches permit new technology but typically forbid television; some limit world wide web access to business uses only. Many members complete high school but higher education is discouraged. Children from these groups typically attend private church schools.

Transformational: Transformational groups seek to transform the larger culture in a variety of ways, including personal evangelism, church planting, overseas missions, prison ministries, international relief and development, social justice, peacemaking, and conflict mediation.

Transformers work in a wide array of jobs as surgeons, mechanics, nurses, lawyers, educators, carpenters, therapists, stockbrokers, managers, and business owners. Most of the members of these groups have televisions and use the world wide web as well as other forms of mass media. About two thirds (360,000) of the Anabaptists in the United States are in the transformational camp.

Transformational groups show many different expressions of Christian faith and piety. They usually grant individual conscience priority over the collective authority of the church. Reflecting the plurality of modern culture, these groups differ on a host of issues—the ordination of women, homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment, political involvement, peacemaking, and others. Some groups are ardent evangelicals, while others accent peacemaking and social justice. Still other churches try to weave all these strands together.

Many transforming congregations employ professional staff—pastors, musicians, Christian educators, and youth leaders. Some of them meet in modern facilities with well-appointed sanctuaries, fellowship halls, and multiple-purpose gymnasiums. Transformational groups also operate national programs and organizations with bureaucratic features—publishing houses, mission boards, colleges, and service agencies.
And yet in the second sentence of the Transitional segment he uses the term Old Order,...???
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Dan Z wrote: I think it would be interesting for once to discuss what we Anabaptists across the spectrum have in common with one another.
Ethnicity, for the most part.
We Anabaptists are spiritual kinfolk - born of the same historical parents in the radical reformation. So, even though we have drifted apart in many ways, in what ways do you think our common DNA present itself across the spectrum of Anabaptism?
Can we admit that many who claim the title "Anabaptist" fall far short of and are even in some cases hostile to the spiritual principles and practices of the historic Anabaptist? If this is so are we really spiritual kinfolk? Maybe the Old Order Amish really do have noting spiritually in common with Pink Mennos (except some family names and genealogy)
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:Can we admit that many who claim the title "Anabaptist" fall far short of and are even in some cases hostile to the spiritual principles and practices of the historic Anabaptist?
Yes, and that's one good example of what old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common. We fall short of and are hostile to different principles and practices, for the most part.

And "the historic Anabaptist" probably doesn't exist. Each of us has a tendency to project our understandings back onto some imaginary "historic Anabaptist" that fails to recognize the differences among even early Anabaptists. That's another thing we have in common.
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Bootstrap »

JimFoxvog wrote:I think we would agree on the main points of the Confession of Faith in an Anabaptist Perspective (online at http://mennoniteusa.org/confession-of-faith/)
Yes, I think so. And I think it is a distinctly different teaching than most Evangelical and Fundamentalist churches. It might be interesting to explore how it differs from what denominations like the Baptists teach.
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Re: What do old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common?

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:Can we admit that many who claim the title "Anabaptist" fall far short of and are even in some cases hostile to the spiritual principles and practices of the historic Anabaptist?
Yes, and that's one good example of what old order, conservative, & progressive Anabaptists have in common. We fall short of and are hostile to different principles and practices, for the most part.

And "the historic Anabaptist" probably doesn't exist. Each of us has a tendency to project our understandings back onto some imaginary "historic Anabaptist" that fails to recognize the differences among even early Anabaptists. That's another thing we have in common.
Did historic Anabaptists actively embrace homosexuality and transsexuality? I think the strong desire to embrace the sexual morality of the left wing is something entirely new to Anabaptism.
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