Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
silentreader
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by silentreader »

Neto wrote:
Ernie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Its logical that you are correct. For the Mennonites, there would have been no OO designation before the division in the Mennonite church.
http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Old_Order_Amish
"Old Order" Amish is strictly an American term which came into usage as some Amish Mennonite congregations resisted "new" methods of church work as well as "new" forms of social organization and technology. One cannot properly speak of "Old Order" before 1850, and its usage came gradually after about 1870, or following the Amish Ministers' Conferences 1862-78
Interesting. I just assumed that it came about as a result of the New Order split off. But let me ask - are you saying that prior to 1850 or so the 'Amish' were called 'Amish Mennonite'?
The Amish and Mennonites were separate entities in the 1860's, that split goes back considerably further. But at around the same time period in the mid to late 1800's, a split occurred in both the Amish and Mennonites, separately, and in each group, those who retained the old order of doing things, were thenceforth identified as Old Order.
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Josh
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by Josh »

The Amish have been called Amish Mennonites off and on since their founding.
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Ernie
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by Ernie »

Neto wrote:
Ernie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Its logical that you are correct. For the Mennonites, there would have been no OO designation before the division in the Mennonite church.
http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Old_Order_Amish
"Old Order" Amish is strictly an American term which came into usage as some Amish Mennonite congregations resisted "new" methods of church work as well as "new" forms of social organization and technology. One cannot properly speak of "Old Order" before 1850, and its usage came gradually after about 1870, or following the Amish Ministers' Conferences 1862-78
Interesting. I just assumed that it came about as a result of the New Order split off. But let me ask - are you saying that prior to 1850 or so the 'Amish' were called 'Amish Mennonite'?
Yes, that is my impression. Amish was an adjective modifying Mennonite after the 1693 division for those who followed Amman.

Jacob Amman basically adopted Menno Simon's theology and practice and applied it to his Swiss Brethren congregations. At this time the Swiss Brethren seemed to have adopted the term "Mennist" instead of the derogatory term "Anabaptist".
http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Mennonite_(The_Name)
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silentreader
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by silentreader »

Perhaps I've been misunderstanding the question. I thought the question was about the Old Order designation.
Question for Ernie, did the Amish call themselves Amish-Mennonites after the Amman split, or were they called that by others?
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Neto
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by Neto »

silentreader wrote:Perhaps I've been misunderstanding the question. I thought the question was about the Old Order designation.
Question for Ernie, did the Amish call themselves Amish-Mennonites after the Amman split, or were they called that by others?
Yes, that was the original question. I can't say for sure, but I was pretty sure that Amish people here in Holmes County had told me that prior to the start of the New Order Amish, it was just 'Amish', as they never recognized the "Beachy Amish Mennonites" as being 'real Amish'. (But obviously I never spoke to anyone that was around back in the 1860s....)
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silentreader
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by silentreader »

Neto wrote:
silentreader wrote:Perhaps I've been misunderstanding the question. I thought the question was about the Old Order designation.
Question for Ernie, did the Amish call themselves Amish-Mennonites after the Amman split, or were they called that by others?
Yes, that was the original question. I can't say for sure, but I was pretty sure that Amish people here in Holmes County had told me that prior to the start of the New Order Amish, it was just 'Amish', as they never recognized the "Beachy Amish Mennonites" as being 'real Amish'. (But obviously I never spoke to anyone that was around back in the 1860s....)
In my limited geographical setting, I am not aware of any Old Order Amish in this area who would consider themselves Amish-Mennonite, for that very reason.
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Josh
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by Josh »

The term "Amish Mennonites" showed up in old literature. In the 20th Century, it took on a different meaning to mean "Amish who are progressing to assimilation with the dominant culture".
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silentreader
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by silentreader »

Josh wrote:The term "Amish Mennonites" showed up in old literature. In the 20th Century, it took on a different meaning to mean "Amish who are progressing to assimilation with the dominant culture".
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything but I'm still curious whether in the 'old literature' the writers were Amish who described themselves as Amish Mennonites or whether the writers were other than Amish.
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Josh
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by Josh »

silentreader wrote:
Josh wrote:The term "Amish Mennonites" showed up in old literature. In the 20th Century, it took on a different meaning to mean "Amish who are progressing to assimilation with the dominant culture".
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything but I'm still curious whether in the 'old literature' the writers were Amish who described themselves as Amish Mennonites or whether the writers were other than Amish.
The early Amish barely wrote anything. Others referred to them as Amish for following Amman's side of the split, such as how in general Anabaptists were called Mennists.

Other contemporary terms then were Täufers (meaning "baptisers") and Brethren.

It's certainly a shift that since the migration to America, the Amish adopted the label Amish for themselves and gradually stopped identifying as Mennonites, Swiss Brethren, or "baptisers".
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Neto
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Re: Conservative/Liberal Graphics

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote:....
The early Amish barely wrote anything. ....
Indeed. When I was a 'seeker" (of the conservative way, 1980 - mid 1981), I wrote an Amish bookstore in Baltic, Ohio (the only address I could find to get information from), asking if there were any writings by Jakob Ammon. They did reply, but just sent a track on "Why we Wear Beards", nothing else. (They apparently didn't write, either.... :lol: ) (I had read all of Menno Simons, and wanted another perspective. I didn't know about the book by Deitrich Phillip at that time, not until many years later, in fact. I have yet to read all the way through it, although I have had it for years already. The one I have is a translation of a translation, to which I attribute the difficulty of getting interested in reading it. But it is also from the Dutch Mennonites, so it wasn't what I was looking for, anyway.)
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