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Sudsy wrote:I don't really care for pointing at Evangelicals in general as that is like how the Amish use the label the 'English'. There are Evangelicals that do pass on Christian values quite well.

Right. That is why we can't stereo type.

People like to talk about Amish incest and other sexual sin. Not all Amish have this problem but many do. So it is fair to say that Amish have a problem with this, as long as it is understood that not all Amish families or communities do.
Same way with Evangelicals. It is fine to mention their overall weaknesses (especially by one of their own) as long as it is understood to talk about a wide spread problem, and not to imply that all Evangelical congregations have this problem.

Sudsy wrote:I found this regarding Amish shunning and the consequences - http://www.exploring-amish-country.com/ ... nning.html

Here is an excerpt -

But Amish shunning means that you will lose the support system to which you have grown accustomed. It means that you must now seek that support elsewhere.

You will find it hard to replace a social networking system that has flourished for centuries and a system on which you have relied for your entire life. As time passes and you have a hard time fitting into the outside world, you may find that your reasons for coming back might out-weigh your reasons for leaving.

I wonder how many actually do come back once they struggle to fit in away from the community.

Shunning only applies people who are baptised and join the church and then leave it, and even then a typical Old Order group tolerates anyone who leaves for another church which does still hold fast to nonresistance.

Harsh shunning tends to happen either when someone did something incredibly shameful, or has demonstrated themselves as a threat who will try to get other people to leave, or happens in very high-control groups like the Bergholz clan.

Sudsy wrote:I found this regarding Amish shunning and the consequences - http://www.exploring-amish-country.com/ ... nning.html

Here is an excerpt -

But Amish shunning means that you will lose the support system to which you have grown accustomed. It means that you must now seek that support elsewhere.

You will find it hard to replace a social networking system that has flourished for centuries and a system on which you have relied for your entire life. As time passes and you have a hard time fitting into the outside world, you may find that your reasons for coming back might out-weigh your reasons for leaving.

I wonder how many actually do come back once they struggle to fit in away from the community.

Enter MAP Ministries:

http://www.mapministry.org/

So this ministry has a great support system to those who wish to leave Amish- the main purpose was to be there for those who leave Amish for the world and hope to reach them for Christ- but the founder believed his Old Order community, did not really know Christ as much as were following a system steeped in rules & regulations.

Ernie wrote:There is some truth in what you are saying, but the point of the article was to identify Christian values that Evangelicals are not passing on very well, and there is truth in that as well.

Agreed, and since gleaning from them (Amish) and trying to convey these things with Evangelical friends and family, it is not received very well- there is much 'self defense' when trying to open eyes to where we are going wrong. I think that most see it as too extreme lifestyle to really make the connection on how one could actually apply some of these things to their own family situation- seems every Evangelical family is caught in the trap of having their children, and being able to afford college for them and raising them to hopefully get good enough in some area, academic or sport or other talent that they can then earn a scholarship to help with future college- it's a trap- and then wonder why we are losing them to the world.
Good article!

It's a good article for cogitation. Some of my thoughts that have come out of it are:
Birth rates do affect the presence of Christianity in any given era. It's better to raise a child in the way you would have him go so in his old age he won't depart from it (Proverbs 22:6).

There are "cultural" church members in every fellowship not just the Amish. The gist that I get from the article is that when we stand on the Bible we will be more likely to practice quiver-full living than to succumb to secular cultural pressures to limit our openness to having children. Children are a blessing from the Lord.

By contrasting with the Amish who don't have worship-entertainment, it seems to me the author is calling for a re-examination of how they conduct corporal worship.

Josh wrote:

mike wrote:I think marriage has some effect - you can't marry if you're not a church member. I asked on Old Order Mennonite recently if many of their young people leave. He said, not many; but they have a fair number of newly married couples that leave. I thought that was interesting. In this particular area I suspect many of those young couples are going over to Weaverland Conference Mennonites (Hornings).

Of corse they can get married without joining the church. They can marry someone else who hasn't joined the church, and they can do so in a civil ceremony or at some church which is lax in being willing to marry virtually anybody.

Of course a non member can't expect to marry a committed member and get all the benefits of Amish marriage with none of the responsibilities and restrictions.

I should have said, you can't marry in a way that is acceptable within the culture without being a church member. If you don't care about fitting into the culture at all, of course you can go to the JP or whatever.

As someone else has said, there are not many consequences for leaving the OO church. And I would think that the consequences might be less leaving as a married couple than leaving as a single person.

Ernie wrote:
In some communities, I think half the Amish don't stay Amish but some of them might become Mennonite or Amish-Mennonite.


Keeping one's offspring in the church doesn't necessarily mean that the manner in which they are kept is honorable. Many Old Order Anabaptists, Conservative Anabaptists, and Mormons put a lot of pressure on their people stay with their particular brand of church, when they should be teaching their children the beliefs, values, and practices to look for in a church.

I wonder what communities you're talking about. I have heard here in Lancaster only about 10 per cent leave. Many, many youth stay after living a wild life they join instruction class, make the confessions they need, sell their cars, get baptized and then married.

The latest statistics I have seen are between 85 and 90% staying in the Old Order Amish. It can vary considerably between communities.

I do think there is a lot of social pressure to stay. They have a good life, why ruin sister's day and family activities by leaving. Some get nicer wedding gifts if they stay. I know one young couple who did not want to be amish but dad told him he'd buy him a house if they stay.....


And so I think it would do us all good to promote strong family values and that is a strength the Amish do have but there are other factors at work with their rapid church growth as well.

It does seem obvious that the extreme view of shunning practiced by the Amish, one I find to be less than biblical, has much to do with retention. However, this maybe primarily due to the stark contrast with the wider practice of reducing Christianity to a mental exercise completely bereft of cultural markers, which is why we consider it so shocking. Perhaps if evangelicals at large took seriously that Jesus had something to say about how we live in addition to salvation by grace alone, we would not consider the Amish beliefs regarding church discipline quite so objectionable.