submission to the church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:
Sudsy wrote: And for us, isn't the NT the bounds of what is acceptable without any further definition ?
Let me ask you this: Does the church that believes that the "NT is the bounds of what is acceptable without any further definition" promote wearing the covering? Does it teach against wearing gold? Does it promote the holy kiss? Feet washing?
When all is boiled down, many people that think the way you are suggesting actually don't even believe in the bounds of the NT.
Indeed, I think what made Anabaptists Anabaptists was zeal to really try to read the NT and try obeying it, starting with the very simple command to "repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus".
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

In general, I do believe the Holy Spirit within every believer is able to instruct all of us how to live a holy life and we are not on our own to figure it all out. Jesus sent The Helper. I don't read much said about the power of the Spirit in our sanctification. It sounds to me that what you are saying is if we don't specify what areas like modesty require one to wear than it will be impossible for that person to know where lines are to be drawn in modesty. And I guess, this is where we primarily differ. If I was outside of any community of believers (none close enough to fellowship with), I can still live a godly life according to the NT with the Spirit's guidance.

But we also differ in what Paul was getting at for instance, in what women should not wear. What I see is Peter making a point to what should be the most obvious in a Christian woman and it wasn't things like gold and hairdos or expensive clothing. It is this - 1 Peter 3;3-4 - "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight." These other ways are what the world uses to draw attention to themselves. This, then does not necessarily negate the wearing of something gold (like a little wedding band) or having a certain hairdo (that isn't a bun) but rather these areas should not stand out over what your character is as a godly woman. It is your spirit that matters most.

The foot washing thing was a custom of that day and we disagree that this was to carried forward into future cultures where we don't walk down dusty roads in sandals. But there are humbling services we can do to show our love and affection for one another. Same with the holy kiss. These areas most Christian churches see as customs of that time and not ordinances. Others think they are locked in. And if they chose to follow Christ in that way then I certainly would have no reason to not see them as brothers and sisters in the Lord or disobeying the scripture.

And we likely do draw different lines with being modest. I wear short pants throughout the summer and short sleeve shirts believing I am very modestly dressed. That is quite common in our Anabaptist community.

We differ too on total sanctification. I believe we are being sanctified as the Spirit works in us to be more like Christ. You stated sanctification is you are, or you aren't sanctified. In a way, yes, I am set apart, sanctified, but it also is an on-going process in each of our lives to work that out more and more in us.

There is quite a difference within Anabaptism in just how we work out our salvation. My belief is that when we do some of the things that Josh listed, we should sense the Holy Spirit telling us, this is not right. If I am in tune with Him, walking in the Spirit, I will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Really makes life simple. Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light. When we walk in the Spirit that becomes a reality. He guides each step we take.

I hope that explains my views better on guidelines that get very specific beyond what scripture explicitly says. We have a wonderful freedom in Christ. I was raised with many of these 'thou shalt nots' and felt very restricted to enjoy life and then I learned how God wants our lives to be abundant with unspeakable joy and peace and love, the Kingdom lifestyle. What a difference this makes when you just trust in the Holy Spirit to guide your steps. It is no longer lamenting about what we give up because what we take on is so much better. Some folks get stuck with the putting off and don't get to the putting on. Others want it to happen without the putting off. Both must happen as the Spirit guides.

Regardless, we our children of God, and I enjoy reading why others within the family believe and practise the way they do. Keep up the good fight. Well, maybe that isn't a good Anabaptist phrase. :roll: :)
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Ernie
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Ernie »

This thread reminds me again of why I think CA's need a "gradual entry process" for those unfamiliar with our values. There really needs to be a way for those who are following Christ to be recognized and treated as full members of the body of Christ, without diminishing our values that help to promote godliness.
(I recognize that many CA values do not help to promote godliness.)
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

Sudsy,

Are you saying the people who do the things in the list I wrote up don't have the Holy Spirit and aren't trying to follow Jesus?
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:Sudsy,

Are you saying the people who do the things in the list I wrote up don't have the Holy Spirit and aren't trying to follow Jesus?
No. I'm saying that those involved in these sort of things need to focus on their relationship with God so they become more sensitive to the direction of the Holy Spirit. As believers we all struggle with the flesh. Many new babes in Christ have not yet developed this kind of relationship. And not only them, but some of us are not developing this closer walk with God that these things would be uncomfortable and convicting. I certainly can't point my finger at other Christians spiritual development (their sanctification progress) when I have many, perhaps not as obvious, areas in my own life where I am being convicted yet not submitting. The old logs in my own eye that still needs removing.

I view the church environment as best nurtured not by focusing as much on the 'putting off' but rather on the 'putting on'. When we keep filled with the Spirit, these 'putting off' things lose their attraction and we also experience power beyond out human capabilities to live a godly life.

So, we all need each other and need to develop means of encouraging one another to live closer to God and leaning on the Spirit's guidance in the way we live. I don't discount guidelines if they stay generally speaking to helpfoster spiritual development such as times of prayer, fasting, bible study, good deeds, sharing our faith, etc that don't get into these more legalistic looking closer to rules than guidelines.

Whoops got to go. Will continue with this later. Have a good day in the Lord !
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

Whoops.
Last edited by Sudsy on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

Whoops, computer failing, can't be me. :lol:
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Valerie
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Josh wrote:Sudsy,

Are you saying the people who do the things in the list I wrote up don't have the Holy Spirit and aren't trying to follow Jesus?
No. I'm saying that those involved in these sort of things need to focus on their relationship with God so they become more sensitive to the direction of the Holy Spirit. As believers we all struggle with the flesh. Many new babes in Christ have not yet developed this kind of relationship. And not only them, but some of us are not developing this closer walk with God that these things would be uncomfortable and convicting. I certainly can't point my finger at other Christians spiritual development (their sanctification progress) when I have many, perhaps not as obvious, areas in my own life where I am being convicted yet not submitting. The old logs in my own eye that still needs removing.

I view the church environment as best nurtured not by focusing as much on the 'putting off' but rather on the 'putting on'. When we keep filled with the Spirit, these 'putting off' things lose their attraction and we also experience power beyond out human capabilities to live a godly life.

So, we all need each other and need to develop means of encouraging one another to live closer to God and leaning on the Spirit's guidance in the way we live. I don't discount guidelines if they stay generally speaking to helpfoster spiritual development such as times of prayer, fasting, bible study, good deeds, sharing our faith, etc that don't get into these more legalistic looking closer to rules than guidelines.

Whoops got to go. Will continue with this later. Have a good day in the Lord !
Thanks Sudsy, you put that very well!
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RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:In general, I do believe the Holy Spirit within every believer is able to instruct all of us how to live a holy life and we are not on our own to figure it all out. Jesus sent The Helper. I don't read much said about the power of the Spirit in our sanctification. It sounds to me that what you are saying is if we don't specify what areas like modesty require one to wear than it will be impossible for that person to know where lines are to be drawn in modesty. And I guess, this is where we primarily differ. If I was outside of any community of believers (none close enough to fellowship with), I can still live a godly life according to the NT with the Spirit's guidance.

But we also differ in what Paul was getting at for instance, in what women should not wear. What I see is Peter making a point to what should be the most obvious in a Christian woman and it wasn't things like gold and hairdos or expensive clothing. It is this - 1 Peter 3;3-4 - "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight." These other ways are what the world uses to draw attention to themselves. This, then does not necessarily negate the wearing of something gold (like a little wedding band) or having a certain hairdo (that isn't a bun) but rather these areas should not stand out over what your character is as a godly woman. It is your spirit that matters most.

The foot washing thing was a custom of that day and we disagree that this was to carried forward into future cultures where we don't walk down dusty roads in sandals. But there are humbling services we can do to show our love and affection for one another. Same with the holy kiss. These areas most Christian churches see as customs of that time and not ordinances. Others think they are locked in. And if they chose to follow Christ in that way then I certainly would have no reason to not see them as brothers and sisters in the Lord or disobeying the scripture.

And we likely do draw different lines with being modest. I wear short pants throughout the summer and short sleeve shirts believing I am very modestly dressed. That is quite common in our Anabaptist community.
Sudsy wrote: We differ too on total sanctification. I believe we are being sanctified as the Spirit works in us to be more like Christ. You stated sanctification is you are, or you aren't sanctified. In a way, yes, I am set apart, sanctified, but it also is an on-going process in each of our lives to work that out more and more in us.
Where did I state sanctification is you are, or you aren't sanctified?
Sudsy wrote: There is quite a difference within Anabaptism in just how we work out our salvation. My belief is that when we do some of the things that Josh listed, we should sense the Holy Spirit telling us, this is not right. If I am in tune with Him, walking in the Spirit, I will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Really makes life simple. Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light. When we walk in the Spirit that becomes a reality. He guides each step we take.

I hope that explains my views better on guidelines that get very specific beyond what scripture explicitly says. We have a wonderful freedom in Christ. I was raised with many of these 'thou shalt nots' and felt very restricted to enjoy life and then I learned how God wants our lives to be abundant with unspeakable joy and peace and love, the Kingdom lifestyle. What a difference this makes when you just trust in the Holy Spirit to guide your steps. It is no longer lamenting about what we give up because what we take on is so much better. Some folks get stuck with the putting off and don't get to the putting on. Others want it to happen without the putting off. Both must happen as the Spirit guides.

Regardless, we our children of God, and I enjoy reading why others within the family believe and practise the way they do. Keep up the good fight. Well, maybe that isn't a good Anabaptist phrase. :roll: :)
I agree with most of what you are saying, but at the end we come to different conclusions.
You say X plus X = Y and I say X plus X = Z. And yet it seems like you are under the impression that I don't believe in the existence of X, which is not our disagreement.
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote: Where did I state sanctification is you are, or you aren't sanctified?

Sorry, that was what Ken posted -
In general, either a person is sanctified or else he's not.


I agree with most of what you are saying, but at the end we come to different conclusions.
You say X plus X = Y and I say X plus X = Z. And yet it seems like you are under the impression that I don't believe in the existence of X, which is not our disagreement.

Sorry again, what is the X that you are referring to that I don't believe you think exists ?
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