submission to the church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

silentreader wrote:
RZehr wrote:
silentreader wrote: Perhaps one of the mistakes we have made is attempting to legislate unity. This is not possible. It is possible, although obviously difficult, to legislate uniformity, but this does not necessarily produce unity. True Christian unity is only possible through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Of course this is true.
I'm not quite sure where you are coming from with this.
I don't think uniformity and unity are mutually exclusive. In fact, the existence of standards are evidence, or proof that unity was present - at least at the beginning.
Lack of standards prove less.
You misunderstand me perhaps. I am not suggesting that unity and uniformity are mutually exclusive. I am saying that legislating uniformity does not, or has little likelihood of producing Christian unity. I do believe though, and have seen it happen, that Christian unity, and especially with spiritual growth following, will produce a degree of uniformity at least to the extent of blurring the edges of intentional individuality.
I am one of ten families intending to move to a new location in order to plant a new church. I have seen first hand how our unity is indeed sanding & blurring the edges of each persons individuality.
silentreader wrote: If uniformity is an ultimate end rather than suggested guideline, it will only foster a new form of individuality as time goes on.
I don't understand this formula. I'm not saying it is, or is not true, but I don't understand it.
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RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:
2. Membership. Asking why someone would attend a church they do not want to be a member of is a question that I do not understand why would be asked.

A. Maybe they do not agree with the standards your church requires and there is not any other reasonable option for them. Should they just stay home and not go anywhere? Why should they join when they know they can not carry out the duties of membership as this particular church wants when this very thread has people ready to leave based on separate service times? Should we not be glad for them just coming and not expect anything thing but the opportunity to share the gospel?

B. Maybe everything is new to them. God works on people with perfect timing. This could be slow to us, but it is not for us to decide how fast someone else's walk should be. He brings people to us, the last thing we need to do is make them feel as if they are not moving fast enough or need to decide now. If decisions are rushed it is not a committed decision and people will often resent the choice made under stress.
A. It is our belief that being an actual part of a church is important. Don't be a spectator. And so the thought is that if, out of the all the of churches out there, you cannot find a single one that is good enough to join, then you should relocate. Find a place you can support and put your shoulder to the wheel. Yes we are glad for visitors. But we don't believe it is healthy for them to perpetually remain in limbo.

B. Isn't a year or two enough time to make a decision? I'm not for rushing anyone. In fact I encourage caution. But what I'm talking about is different from caution.

Edit: I understand in many circumstances people can't simply relocate. And we don't have a real good answer for them, other than hope someday they can, or perhaps a church would start for them. But we do understand that is different than cherishing their individuality and refusing to become a part of a church.
Last edited by RZehr on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:B. Isn't a year or two enough time to make a decision? I'm not for rushing anyone. In fact I encourage caution. But what I'm talking about is different from caution.
Newcomers should know it will take a year+ for membership, so don't delay by a year or two. Just give it a few months. I'm glad I only waited a few months before asking. It will be 3 years since I was born again in July, and I'm still not a member not baptised anywhere, other than with a few brothers who accept me and don't like to see me spiritually homeless. This is through no specific fault, but simply:

1. I applied for baptism in Sept. 2014
2. Instruction class ran January 2015 - Easter 2016
3. I moved to Australia in Aug. 2015
4. Instruction class in Australia ran from January 2016 - end of year 2016
5. I moved back to America in March 2016
6. Church of God in Christ, Mennonite proving time runs about a year. I started attending December 2016.

You've got one shot to get in instruction class a year, and newcomers would be well advised not to blow it. I honestly wish I'd known better. I needed to move to Australia to be with an ill family member, and I had to move back to America when I just didn't make enough wages to support myself.

That's a reality a lot of NMB face, and there's nothing we can do except keep waiting.
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silentreader
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by silentreader »

RZehr wrote:
silentreader wrote: If uniformity is an ultimate end rather than suggested guideline, it will only foster a new form of individuality as time goes on.
I don't understand this formula. I'm not saying it is, or is not true, but I don't understand it.
I think I'm getting out of line here, my judgement was condemnatory rather than discerning. I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but I have seen individuals take what I considered as personal pride in their level of uniformity.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

RZehr wrote:
TeleBodyofChrist wrote:
2. Membership. Asking why someone would attend a church they do not want to be a member of is a question that I do not understand why would be asked.

A. Maybe they do not agree with the standards your church requires and there is not any other reasonable option for them. Should they just stay home and not go anywhere? Why should they join when they know they can not carry out the duties of membership as this particular church wants when this very thread has people ready to leave based on separate service times? Should we not be glad for them just coming and not expect anything thing but the opportunity to share the gospel?

B. Maybe everything is new to them. God works on people with perfect timing. This could be slow to us, but it is not for us to decide how fast someone else's walk should be. He brings people to us, the last thing we need to do is make them feel as if they are not moving fast enough or need to decide now. If decisions are rushed it is not a committed decision and people will often resent the choice made under stress.
A. It is our belief that being an actual part of a church is important. Don't be a spectator. And so the thought is that if, out of the all the of churches out there, you cannot find a single one that is good enough to join, then you should relocate. Find a place you can support and put your shoulder to the wheel. Yes we are glad for visitors. But we don't believe it is healthy for them to perpetually remain in limbo.

B. Isn't a year or two enough time to make a decision? I'm not for rushing anyone. In fact I encourage caution. But what I'm talking about is different from caution.

Edit: I understand in many circumstances people can't simply relocate. And we don't have a real good answer for them, other than hope someday they can, or perhaps a church would start for them. But we do understand that is different than cherishing their individuality and refusing to become a part of a church.
This is one of the differences in looking at things I am discovering. I know you mentioned in your edited statement that you know it is not always possible but it is more than relocation. It is trust. For example, I have noticed how many MB families just move to other communities and auction off everything. There does not appear to be any worry on what they will do for a living when they get there or how they will survive. Someone appears to help them set up. They move for the church and not the job.

In the other culture, people do not move for a place to worship they worship at the churches that are available to them where their jobs are. Most churches do not require membership to be active or considered active. It is not looked at as being in limbo as they look at whether you are born again and a member of the body of Christ not necessarily their church building.

Communities are not set up the same. People can not readily depend on the community to help them survive so they must make sure they can take care of themselves. We have never depended on anyone else or have we had anyone to ever help us with anything. Every time I have tried to trust or depend on other people they never came through.

For example, the community we did join was telling us how great it would be for us to move closer to the community. How it would be a blessing. They wanted my husband to quit his job because it was through a union and find work with them. Like I said we have a hard time trusting or depending on people so we did not do it on our own. Things ended up working out that the project he was on ended and we found a deal on a property that was in the community.

We moved in, and almost starved! After that, I just can not take the risk of moving for a church that would be more to my liking.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Josh wrote:
RZehr wrote:B. Isn't a year or two enough time to make a decision? I'm not for rushing anyone. In fact I encourage caution. But what I'm talking about is different from caution.
Newcomers should know it will take a year+ for membership, so don't delay by a year or two. Just give it a few months. I'm glad I only waited a few months before asking. It will be 3 years since I was born again in July, and I'm still not a member not baptised anywhere, other than with a few brothers who accept me and don't like to see me spiritually homeless. This is through no specific fault, but simply:

1. I applied for baptism in Sept. 2014
2. Instruction class ran January 2015 - Easter 2016
3. I moved to Australia in Aug. 2015
4. Instruction class in Australia ran from January 2016 - end of year 2016
5. I moved back to America in March 2016
6. Church of God in Christ, Mennonite proving time runs about a year. I started attending December 2016.

You've got one shot to get in instruction class a year, and newcomers would be well advised not to blow it. I honestly wish I'd known better. I needed to move to Australia to be with an ill family member, and I had to move back to America when I just didn't make enough wages to support myself.

That's a reality a lot of NMB face, and there's nothing we can do except keep waiting.
I have heard of some NMBs that are still waiting to be members of an Anabaptist church. I remember on MD there was one in Ireland that for some reason was not able to join.

In our case, we probably should have waited longer or maybe visited other Anabaptist churches at different levels of conservatism. There is a Mennonite church, I do not remember the name but is was something USA but the Mennonite people we knew talked against and it was a long drive so we never went.

The problem is there are so many differences between churches as far as level of conservatism I am not sure where we would best fit. Maybe there is a quiz out there somewhere to match people to the flavor of Anabaptist they are more likely to blend with. I don't know.

Also, I should probably say all this could be the throes of culture shock too. If that makes sense. I do believe God sent us to the church for a reason I am just not sure what that reason was at this time.
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy, here's the problem I have with how you're using Romans 14, and it may be a perception problem on my end but I keep coming back to this.
You are reading it to say that no one else should judge Sudsy in how Sudsy wants to practise and apply his faith in his daily walk, when it is actually saying, Sudsy, you should not judge any one else in how they want to practise and apply their faith in their daily walk.

...And I'm wondering if judgement as condemnation and judgement as discernment are getting confused. The one we have no right to do, the other is an essential part of the Christian walk.
Whew much to respond to. Had a busy day.

I see them one and the same. I am not to judge you in your spiritual growth during the sanctification process and you are not to judge me in this process. We are not talking here about judging each other regarding obvious, unrepentant sinning like that in 1 Cor 5 where someone was claiming to be a brother yet was obviously not a brother. In that case and cases like that, the scripture does say to make a judgment to not fellowship with this person. He is not showing the fruit of true repentance and has slipped into the fellowship and the Corinthian church was not dealing with it.

The difference in Romans 14, to me, is that this is not talking about sinning and judging each other's sins but rather judging how we each are learning to walk in the Spirit. This is where I think some church standards have erred. They go into areas of sanctification in a forced way when they should allow the Holy Spirit to work things out in His way and timing. I can be, for instance, a woman that choses not to wear a cape dress but if a minimum standard is set that I must wear one, then this is not a salvation issue but rather an issue regarding sanctification. I may see I can dress modestly without a cape dress, yet the fellowship is seeing me as in rebellion to authority, a major sin as if I am not a Christian ore a sin that can separate me from the group.

I don't know if I have explained this better but I am enjoying the challenges to what I post as it provides me more to consider in my beliefs. Now to respond to the next one. Fun eh ?
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Josh- I don't know why you think Parkside is proselytizing Mennonites- I've never heard any such thing. Actually, I have heard him say positive things about Amish & Mennonites- even using them as examples (in a couple areas) so he's been more charitable to them, than you are to him?. I have only talked to one couple there that is former Mennonite- and they gave their reasons for leaving Mennonite for Parkside & it wasn't proselytizing that did it. They may, like us, recognize that Pastor Begg KNOWS the Lord and our hearts burn within us as he preaches- I don't find this just anywhere and we don't think he is infallible- but we do find sound doctrine there and when we have prayed with others in Sunday School there- we too believe these people KNOW the Lord- I think this is something we all appreciate wherever the Lord leads us to worship-
Valerie you are testing me to envy. :P I love Pastor Begg's teachings. If I could cross Lake Erie as the crow flies, some 50 miles, I would make the flight often. Glad you are enjoying his ministry.
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silentreader
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy, here's the problem I have with how you're using Romans 14, and it may be a perception problem on my end but I keep coming back to this.
You are reading it to say that no one else should judge Sudsy in how Sudsy wants to practise and apply his faith in his daily walk, when it is actually saying, Sudsy, you should not judge any one else in how they want to practise and apply their faith in their daily walk.

...And I'm wondering if judgement as condemnation and judgement as discernment are getting confused. The one we have no right to do, the other is an essential part of the Christian walk.
Whew much to respond to. Had a busy day.

I see them one and the same. I am not to judge you in your spiritual growth during the sanctification process and you are not to judge me in this process. We are not talking here about judging each other regarding obvious, unrepentant sinning like that in 1 Cor 5 where someone was claiming to be a brother yet was obviously not a brother. In that case and cases like that, the scripture does say to make a judgment to not fellowship with this person. He is not showing the fruit of true repentance and has slipped into the fellowship and the Corinthian church was not dealing with it.

The difference in Romans 14, to me, is that this is not talking about sinning and judging each other's sins but rather judging how we each are learning to walk in the Spirit. This is where I think some church standards have erred. They go into areas of sanctification in a forced way when they should allow the Holy Spirit to work things out in His way and timing. I can be, for instance, a woman that choses not to wear a cape dress but if a minimum standard is set that I must wear one, then this is not a salvation issue but rather an issue regarding sanctification. I may see I can dress modestly without a cape dress, yet the fellowship is seeing me as in rebellion to authority, a major sin as if I am not a Christian ore a sin that can separate me from the group.

I don't know if I have explained this better but I am enjoying the challenges to what I post as it provides me more to consider in my beliefs. Now to respond to the next one. Fun eh ?
Sudsy, if you tried to dress modestly in a cape dress it might be more than just a sanctification issue.
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RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:
Whew much to respond to. Had a busy day.

I see them one and the same. I am not to judge you in your spiritual growth during the sanctification process and you are not to judge me in this process. We are not talking here about judging each other regarding obvious, unrepentant sinning like that in 1 Cor 5 where someone was claiming to be a brother yet was obviously not a brother. In that case and cases like that, the scripture does say to make a judgment to not fellowship with this person. He is not showing the fruit of true repentance and has slipped into the fellowship and the Corinthian church was not dealing with it.

The difference in Romans 14, to me, is that this is not talking about sinning and judging each other's sins but rather judging how we each are learning to walk in the Spirit. This is where I think some church standards have erred. They go into areas of sanctification in a forced way when they should allow the Holy Spirit to work things out in His way and timing. I can be, for instance, a woman that choses not to wear a cape dress but if a minimum standard is set that I must wear one, then this is not a salvation issue but rather an issue regarding sanctification. I may see I can dress modestly without a cape dress, yet the fellowship is seeing me as in rebellion to authority, a major sin as if I am not a Christian ore a sin that can separate me from the group.

I don't know if I have explained this better but I am enjoying the challenges to what I post as it provides me more to consider in my beliefs. Now to respond to the next one. Fun eh ?
I don't see how you are connecting standards with sanctification. They aren't the same thing, and we who have standards don't make that connection.
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