submission to the church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

Think of “X” as the core truth, the meat of the issue.

When you say this:
Sudsy wrote: It sounds to me that what you are saying is if we don't specify what areas like modesty require one to wear than it will be impossible for that person to know where lines are to be drawn in modesty. And I guess, this is where we primarily differ. If I was outside of any community of believers (none close enough to fellowship with), I can still live a godly life according to the NT with the Spirit's guidance.
For myself it isn’t a question of impossibility. I don’t disagree with this. But I don’t come to your apparent conclusion that since it is a possibility to eventually come to an understanding of modesty alone, that equals no church should require a minimum clothing standard.
Sudsy wrote: What I see is Peter making a point to what should be the most obvious in a Christian woman and it wasn't things like gold and hairdos or expensive clothing. It is this - 1 Peter 3;3-4 - "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight." These other ways are what the world uses to draw attention to themselves. This, then does not necessarily negate the wearing of something gold (like a little wedding band) or having a certain hairdo (that isn't a bun) but rather these areas should not stand out over what your character is as a godly woman. It is your spirit that matters most.
Here we see a subtle change, depending on the translation used. The version you quote really downplays the command I see in verse 3. The ESV and KJV are a bit more blunt – ESV: 1 Peter 3:3-4 Do not let your adorning be external – the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing your were – But let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.
KJV: 1 Peter 3:3-4 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price

I agree your character and spirit and motivations matters most, and someone wearing a gold wedding band can have a modest heart. But I don’t make the leap from there to “only the inner spirit matters and it is perfectly acceptable to wear gold and expensive clothes, and if someone disagrees they must be ignorant of the true meaning”

Regarding footwashing, & holy kiss, these may not be salvation issues. But they are very practical, humbling Biblical traditions that are nice. Of course there are other humbling services we can do to show our love and affection for on another. I’m not sure why Protestant Christianity has dropped feetwashing while keeping communion. Aren’t they both symbolic unless one believes as the Catholics?
John 13:12-15 KJV: Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one anothers feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

I’m not saying these are always a salvation issue. But I don’t see why: Best = Obedience in spirit – Obedience in deed.
It seems to me that: Best= Obedience in spirit + Obedience in deed.
At issue is the principle of settling for what is acceptable instead of the best. But I know you thing I'm doing the same.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that the mind that has no interest in doing actual things in the Bible such as these, is primarily interested in the barest minimum they must do in order to avoid going to Hell. (Not you. I know you don’t believe in Hell)
Whereas the mind that “hungers and thirsts after righteousness” says hey, if there is something to gain spiritually by actually doing/not doing this thing that is in the Bible, then I want to do it. I want to gain every advantage possible to defeat the enemy of my soul. Both in my life here on earth and for eternal life. Not out of legalism, but out of a hunger to grow stronger spiritually.
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

I don't see any middle ground between churches with standards and teaching on applications of modesty and churches where young women in good standing who seem otherwise to be filled with the Spirit consistently wear yoga pants and bikinis.

If this isn't the case, please point such groups of believers out to me.
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Ernie
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: Well, Valerie, I am part of the what we call the church of God. We believe we are one the one, true visible church spoken about in Ephesians 4. We believe many people are genuinely born again, but that the true expression of church is in our church. We believe there are sincerely believers in other churches, and that God guides each person on a path specific to them, and guides them into a church, but that those who are in other churches are placed there for the purpose of being a prophetic witness to encourage that church back into the one, true faith.
Do you agree with this belief?
Do you see me as one of these prophetic witnesses?
If yes, what would it look like for me to encourage my church back into the one, true faith?
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:
Josh wrote: Well, Valerie, I am part of the what we call the church of God. We believe we are one the one, true visible church spoken about in Ephesians 4. We believe many people are genuinely born again, but that the true expression of church is in our church. We believe there are sincerely believers in other churches, and that God guides each person on a path specific to them, and guides them into a church, but that those who are in other churches are placed there for the purpose of being a prophetic witness to encourage that church back into the one, true faith.
Do you agree with this belief?
Do you see me as one of these prophetic witnesses?
If yes, what would it look like for me to encourage my church back into the one, true faith?
I don't consider it useful to attend a church and then immediately start challenging its doctrine, even if it seems quite strange. That's how I handled divorce & remarriage, the veiling, nonresistance, and a few other things that were very strange at first.

With that said, I feel a few blessings from being around people who believe they are they definitely a true church accepted by God:

- We do not speculate if other churches are true or not. We focus on ourselves.

- We have a high priority to maintain discipline and not to tolerate open sin. My prior experience in Mennonite-land was tolerance of shocking levels of open sin.

- A strong belief in being a true church means people actually believe in evangelising the lost focusing on missions in cities and overseas. Moderate-conservative-land tends to be apologise for its beliefs.

- Finally, we have a unique ability to minister to people like Valerie which are attracted to one true church doctrine. And our people do not get poached by silver tongued cult leaders who claim they're the true church, like is happening rampantly with the Church of God Restoration to German Baptists.
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: Do you agree with this belief?
Do you see me as one of these prophetic witnesses?
If yes, what would it look like for me to encourage my church back into the one, true faith?
Without knowing anyone except you in your church and never having visited there I could not speculate.
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:Think of “X” as the core truth, the meat of the issue.

OK.

When you say this:
Sudsy wrote: It sounds to me that what you are saying is if we don't specify what areas like modesty require one to wear than it will be impossible for that person to know where lines are to be drawn in modesty. And I guess, this is where we primarily differ. If I was outside of any community of believers (none close enough to fellowship with), I can still live a godly life according to the NT with the Spirit's guidance.
For myself it isn’t a question of impossibility. I don’t disagree with this. But I don’t come to your apparent conclusion that since it is a possibility to eventually come to an understanding of modesty alone, that equals no church should require a minimum clothing standard.

I didn't intend for that conclusion. Minimum standards to belong to a group is quite common in worldly communities. There are many non-religious groups who have minimum clothing standards. But we have someone they don't have to teach us how to live and He does this in a step by step way as we walk in step with Him. If we set, for instance, 'minimum clothing standards' (i.e. women must wear a cape style dress) and they are for everyone in the church to follow regardless of their spiritual maturity level or there will be consequences, then have we not just interfered with the progressive work of the Holy Spirit in each one's sanctification ? In my opinion we have.

Instead, if we encourage women that scripture points out women should dress modestly and how this means not drawing excessive attention to your body and/or outward adornments, then, along with guidance from more spiritually mature women to listen to the Holy Spirit's guiding them, modesty would develop without minimum standards. There are some Anabaptist and other churches, where this works. And in these, you will see various maturing in progress. It is not about conforming and submitting to standards a group defines but rather allowing for spiritual development to occur and loving one another as it occurs.

Sudsy wrote: What I see is Peter making a point to what should be the most obvious in a Christian woman and it wasn't things like gold and hairdos or expensive clothing. It is this - 1 Peter 3;3-4 - "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight." These other ways are what the world uses to draw attention to themselves. This, then does not necessarily negate the wearing of something gold (like a little wedding band) or having a certain hairdo (that isn't a bun) but rather these areas should not stand out over what your character is as a godly woman. It is your spirit that matters most.
Here we see a subtle change, depending on the translation used. The version you quote really downplays the command I see in verse 3. The ESV and KJV are a bit more blunt – ESV: 1 Peter 3:3-4 Do not let your adorning be external – the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing your were – But let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.
KJV: 1 Peter 3:3-4 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price

I agree your character and spirit and motivations matters most, and someone wearing a gold wedding band can have a modest heart. But I don’t make the leap from there to “only the inner spirit matters and it is perfectly acceptable to wear gold and expensive clothes, and if someone disagrees they must be ignorant of the true meaning”

I didn't intend to suggest that either. My belief is not saying anyone else's belief is due to their ignorance of the true meaning. I'm submitting an interpretation similar to what I think certain translations put into english. I do think Paul was talking about 'over the top' use of these things. Women in that day often wore much more jewelry than a gold wedding band. However, some would say, any gold must be avoided. Well, then perhaps all hair styles should be avoided including buns or beehives and women would best be avoiding hair issues if they wore something like a nuns head cover. And are we going to specify just what expensive is when it gets to clothes and update that as the market changes ? Simply, our dress reflects where our values are and how we present ourselves. If we are concerned about our character/spirit, then we won't let our outward adornments detract from the character/Spirit of Christ shining through us. For some, they may feel lead of the HS to avoid all gold adornments. If that is how they chose to honor God then the church should respect that as their personal conviction. I have convictions others do not have because, for me, they are potential areas of weakness. So, for me, in those areas total abstinence is the way that I should go.

Regarding footwashing, & holy kiss, these may not be salvation issues. But they are very practical, humbling Biblical traditions that are nice. Of course there are other humbling services we can do to show our love and affection for on another. I’m not sure why Protestant Christianity has dropped feetwashing while keeping communion. Aren’t they both symbolic unless one believes as the Catholics?

Yes, I agree they are symbolic but communion does not have a cultural and environment links that foot washing does. In our society, we don't wash people's feet as they enter our homes from dusty roads. Therefore, many do not consider this as a timeless ordinance. Yet, personally, I don't know of a modern day equivalent that really gets that personal in humbling ourselves with each other. Our previous MB pastor would often go around the banquet room keeping coffee cups topped up and working in the kitchen in serving others. This is an area we should probably be more creative in if we are to drop literal footwashing as our Anabaptist church has.

John 13:12-15 KJV: Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one anothers feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

I’m not saying these are always a salvation issue. But I don’t see why: Best = Obedience in spirit – Obedience in deed.
It seems to me that: Best= Obedience in spirit + Obedience in deed.
At issue is the principle of settling for what is acceptable instead of the best. But I know you thing I'm doing the same.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that the mind that has no interest in doing actual things in the Bible such as these, is primarily interested in the barest minimum they must do in order to avoid going to Hell. (Not you. I know you don’t believe in Hell)

Whoa. I don't believe in hell ? Another area I need to clarify. I do believe in hell, just not a place of unending torment. Once the unsaved are judged and sentenced to whatever God determines as a just sentence, after serving that sentence, it is my belief, that immortality is conditional, and after paying for one's sins they will be annihilated. Just too many scriptures that say we will be destroyed/perish for me to conclude hell is never ending torment as well as how this is so confusing to me regarding the character of a just and loving God. And I know this goes against the grain of traditional Christian understanding.

Now regarding doing actual things in the bible - if we really believe everything Jesus said about following Him is literally applicable to us today, then none of us would be on these computers. Have we left all ? Hated our families ? Poked out an eye ? Are taking up a cross daily ? etc, etc. No. Imo, anyone who has no interest in following Jesus using the bible as guidance, has not be born again. But when Jesus left the earth, He promised us the Helper to help us apply the truths that Jesus taught. Yet we don't all clearly see these applications the same although there is a fair amount of commonality. Many church splits have occurred mainly due to approaching following Jesus a bit different from other believers. I often wonder how grieved the Spirit must be when we don't really listen to Him but launch out on our own ideas about what God is most concerned about.


Whereas the mind that “hungers and thirsts after righteousness” says hey, if there is something to gain spiritually by actually doing/not doing this thing that is in the Bible, then I want to do it. I want to gain every advantage possible to defeat the enemy of my soul. Both in my life here on earth and for eternal life. Not out of legalism, but out of a hunger to grow stronger spiritually.

Amen ! To follow Jesus is not about what all Jesus can do for me but what He can do through me, through the HS power, to serve others. And in this, He promises to never forsake us and the Spirit filled life, if we chose to pursue it, is one of unspeakable joy, a peace the world cannot give, hope, love and much more. Jesus example is one of serving others and sometimes the worldly mindset gets into the church that says "serve me, me, me."

I just got back from delivering hot meals to people in our city (meals on wheels, a city run benefit). This got me thinking more about other areas I can become part of and how they can possibly lead to relationships to share the Gospel. To me, this is where spiritual growth is best learned and experienced. What we do out in the world that reflects the Spirit of Jesus.

I appreciate all this discussion. Good to read the support given for alternate views.
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RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

I shouldn’t have been so short regarding your view of Hell. I apologize for that. I did and do remember that your belief is in regard to eternal torment and I should have indicated as such.

So do you believe that the women in the church that Peter sent this letter to, understood and practiced that wearing a little gold was fine? And you are applying this the same as them?
Or-
Do you believe that our norms have changed to the extent that today it doesn’t matter if a little gold is worn today, even though they may have not done so?



I suppose it depends on whether your understanding is based off ESV or NIV. As far as I Peter 3:3, I am not really knowledgeable enough to know whether the NIV or ESV is true to original intent.
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Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:I shouldn’t have been so short regarding your view of Hell. I apologize for that. I did and do remember that your belief is in regard to eternal torment and I should have indicated as such.

No problem I wasn't offended.

So do you believe that the women in the church that Peter sent this letter to, understood and practiced that wearing a little gold was fine? And you are applying this the same as them?
Or-
Do you believe that our norms have changed to the extent that today it doesn’t matter if a little gold is worn today, even though they may have not done so?

I don't know what the women all did with Peter's teaching on this text. What I don't read is that they were more specific in some further church standard or guideline on how much gold could be worn. I remember when my mother first became a Christian wearing jewelry around your neck and/or wrist was thought to be a symbol of the chains that bind a sinner. So, she never wore this kind of jewelry but the wedding band was a symbol of a covenant marriage relationship so they wore wedding bands. Those containing a certain amount of gold was not an issue. However, the women wore broaches on their dresses and that seemed OK as it was just pinned on.

Peter was talking about what makes a wife beautiful and not to think like the world thinks that beauty is about how one adorns themselves. I don't think Peter here was talking total abstinence in these areas but rather these areas are not to be her focus in being beautiful for her husband.


I suppose it depends on whether your understanding is based off ESV or NIV. As far as I Peter 3:3, I am not really knowledgeable enough to know whether the NIV or ESV is true to original intent.
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:I suppose it depends on whether your understanding is based off ESV or NIV. As far as I Peter 3:3, I am not really knowledgeable enough to know whether the NIV or ESV is true to original intent.
I haven't been following this thread, but let me compare these translations:
ESV wrote:3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.
NIV wrote:3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.
The word "fine" is not in the Greek. I think it is added to many translations because they miss the point. It says literally "not the external braiding of hair and putting on gold or wearing clothes". As AT Robertson points out, this passage does not forbid women wearing garments. If it does not, then this passage, taken by itself at least, does not forbid women wearing gold or braiding hair either. But it's very clear that the real beauty is not the external beauty of clothes, jewelry, and hair.
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