submission to the church?

[Wade]

Here is where my mind went today:

Mr. New Settler was a very humble hard worker. He was the first one to settle in the New Land. Through much trials and experience he gained a lot of wisdom of how to handle many things. Like building a home, and providing food for his growing family. He lived continually with very selfless efforts and soon others flocked in. Since Mr. New Settler knew the work involved, he sacrificed time and resources to help and encourage other settlers moving into the area. He never made a fuss about a new settlers inability to accomplish some of the tasks that by now were easy for him but rather would humbly take any opportunity he could in helping others. He found joy in helping others avoid those mistakes he had made along the way of developing the land and home in which he lived.

His children grew up as hard working but without the pressure and concern of providing. Systems were in place to really support each other as time lead to a well functioning community.

By the time the grandchildren had come along they could not really be considered new settlers as they had grown up with luxuries that their grandparent Mr. New Settler never dreamed. By this time every one that lived in this community could see all the things that Mr. New Settler had done so well and in efforts to keep with those ideas and wisdom, they set standards that were to keep the community well ordered and functioning optimally. Natural nobody opposed these ideas as it is what they grew up with and it has always worked for them. There was much unity and peace. They flourished so much they were able to help others further out than Mr. New Settler ever did.

Then came along Mr. Newcomer to the community. He had read of the care and spirit of Mr. New Settler even though he had passed away by now.

Mr. Newcomers family worked hard like Mr. New Settler did in moving forward to get properly established and conform to the same standards that existed within the community. Mr. New Settler's now grown grandchildren were quite excited to have the Newcomers and gave encouragement. They often showed much gratefulness for the heritage and community passed down to them and carried much joy. They were a pleasure and a breath of fresh air to Mr. Newcomer and his family.
It was a big adjustment for Mr. Newcomer, he did not have the resources or the luxuries or even the knowledge that the community had. He looked to Mr. New Settler and his great humility in putting his shoulder to the wheel, that he read about. Mr. Newcomer worked with his family but starting out with nothing takes much effort and time. The community helped one another but held back from Mr. Newcomer while looking on and wondered if he possessed the same spirit that had made the community what it was? Many had come looking for a better life without wanting to put into the community and so the community was concerned by an inability to conform to the set standards that held a stability for the community.

By this time Mr. New Settler in fact would have been unable to live up to the standards of the very community that he started. He himself knew with his wisdom before his passing that it was never standards that made the community great but rather the care, love and help one to another in building each others lives together. This spirit was still present within the community towards one another but because of other dishonest newcomers the community as a whole did not reach out to those who were not too yet established but rather waited to see if newcomer's were going to reach the established standards.

Even though some seemed to accept Mr. Newcomer eventually the pressure to conform for him created a deep since of disillusionment in the community. It wasn't that he didn't want to conform, but rather that he still lacked the resources and skills, even if he was slowly moving in also becoming established. He could see hope at times of the servants heart Mr. New Settler had even past the pressure of the standards that Mr. New Settler's grandchildren had. He was very much motivated to do the same. Although Mr. Newcomer loved that community, standards, and the way they took care of each other, he finally succumbed to moving on in search of the spirit that the community once had in accepting others while also reaching out in helping others...

He was never in search to receive so he could meet standards, but rather so he could partake in being joined in that same giving Spirit - the very Spirit that made the community what it was...

[Sudsy]

Thanks again for your replies. I am pondering all your points. My response here in blue.

Thanks Ken for taking the time to explain. You use the phrase 'those holding to the original church position' and 'the official church position' but where is this in the text ?

I don't think I used the phrase "original church position."

Sorry typo meant to type 'official' not 'original'.

Romans 14:1-6 discusses mutual brotherly kindness in relation to the keeping the dietary requirements and holy days of OT law. The Jerusalem Conference was some years previous, and the church had made a ruling on these requirements. I think that qualifies as "the official church position."

I don't see where Paul is just talking to the leaders in the church but rather anyone who could be judging their brother on personal ways of following Christ. Especially older Christians and how they interact wih younger ones (spiritually speaking). This text, to me, is speaking to each individual Christian in how to interact with each other regarding our differences and allows for spiritual growth to occur and not be imposed or forced on anyone.

I would agree that Paul is not giving instructions here for church administration. Rather he is giving guidance for how to interact on an individual level within the bounds of what is acceptable.

And for us, isn't the NT the bounds of what is acceptable without any further definition ?

It is this need for the church to define an official church position ('the group has come to an agreement on a minimum standard') when talking about sanctification I don't find in the NT.

What exactly do you think Acts 15 is about? The church at Jerusalem provided guidance to help settle the unrest caused by various individual opinions about what was necessary or appropriate. The final decision included an instruction to abstain from eating meat offered to idols, which Paul tells us isn't actually sinful. That was a practical decision applicable to that time and culture. Today the church discusses and provides guidance on current issues.

Basically it starts out being about the criteria of salvation, circumcision unnecessary. A salvation issue. Then a judgment was made to not trouble the new Gentile converts but ask them to support a couple areas that are upsetting some of the Jewish converts. So, if you are saying this establishes a precedent to allow for standards of a non-sinful nature to be formed according to the culture and sensitivities of other believers, then lets give it a try. I could then say (sticking with the same example in the previous post) a standard should be that women should not wear cape dresses as the majority of Christian women do not and it does not fit in with our culture and by restraining (not a sin) they could fit in with most Christian women today who have found a way to be modernly modest. Who then is to set these standards ? A small minority of Christian women or the majority of Christian women who believe the term modesty needs no further definition ? Sorry, women, don't mean to pick on you, just using that for a sake of deabate.

The reasons for this add-to are honourable but I don't see where the approach to unity is about things like, for instance, what we wear. Scripture says not to draw the wrong kind of attention by our appearance, no further defining needed. Our unity and our witness to the world, Jesus said, is primarily by our good deeds and how we love one another. And the 'one another 'is everyone who makes up His Bride. If we all go about setting minimum standards of sanctification to adhere to in our little groups they will not be the same so how will this ever be a clear witness to the world ? To me, they can be a distraction and hindrance to good deeds and reflect the same kind of divisions Paul was warning the Corinthians to stay away from.

I'm trying to imagine how that conversation between a pastor and his wayward member might go.
Pastor - "Son, you're drawing the wrong kind of attention by your appearance."
Member - "What do you mean?
Pastor - "The Bible tells us not to be drawing attention to ourselves by the way we dress, which would include how we fix our hair."
Member - "What am I doing wrong? How am I drawing undue attention to myself?"
Pastor - "You're drawing the wrong kind of attention by your appearance. I'm sure if you think about it you can understand what I mean. No further explanation needed."

You see what I mean? Part of the work of the church, part of the way we demonstrate love to each other, is by helping one another along toward perfection. We speak into each others' lives, like Paul did with Peter when Peter got carried away by the division between Jews and Gentiles in Antioch, and as we see demonstrated in the epistles. Most church standards are a basic list of current ways that Bible principles apply to life in the culture we live in. Jesus never said "don't join the Masons," but even a weak Christian can understand why membership in secret societies is proscribed by NT commands.


OK, lets flip it around -
Pastor - "Lady you're drawing the wrong kind of attention by your outward adorning."
Member - "What do you mean?
Pastor - "The Bible tells us not to be drawing attention to ourselves by our outward adorning, which would include how different we dress from other Christian women who dress modestly"
Member - "What am I doing wrong? How am I drawing undue attention to myself?"
Pastor - "You're drawing the wrong kind of attention by your outward adorning. Paul was saying you are to draw attention by your meek and gentle spirit not by how you outwardly adorn yourself, albeit modest. I'm sure if you think about it you can understand what I mean. No further explanation needed."

I've seen a lot more division, distraction, hindrance to good deeds, and muddled witness to the world caused by those who insist that their religious practice is between them and God and the brotherhood can't tell them what to do. PA has a lot of "little groups," many of which set their individual lines at different places, but there is broad appreciation and respect across the spectrum.

In this I am not saying our religious practise is just between me and God as we are to encourage one another and pray for one another to press on to the goal set before us. To get our priorities on what Jesus said is a light unto the world - good deeds in that text. How we are to be known primariy for our exceptional love for one another. How we allow for our spiritual growth differences in sanctification according to Romans 14 and can still be united in Christ. Instead of replacing the law of Moses with a whole new set of laws we allow the Holy Spirit to work using those laws that are put in and developed in our hearts.

I do not think I'm supporting the individualism of our culture to do our own thing but rather supporting the individual sanctification that is going on in each of our lives by the Holy Spirit. At the end of it all it won't be how well we followed church standards but rather how we responded to the Spirit's guidance when He says this is the way to go walk ye in it. And I think this is why some Anabaptist fellowships tread very lightly with these standard requirements in sanctification.

[Josh]

Part of becoming Mennonite is just learning to trust in the community, the broad community, liberal Mennonites too, Brethren, Apostolic Christians, and even non-Anabaptists.

I gave up stuff and submitted. I ended up broke. But church people helped me out with cash, a job, a place to stay, help with doctor bills, food, and most of all companionship. So many times I was lonely and looked forward so much to any excuse to get together, which we Mennonites tend to do as often as we can!

I learned to trust God too to provide my needs. Now I have "co-conspirators" who aren't Mennonite background but are some of my best friends who want to move needy people in, help get them jobs, provide any assistance and share the love and life we have. Our hearts hurt to think of people who don't get to live with this kind of security and community.

Of course it involves laying down a LOT of pride.

[TeleBodyofChrist]

Here is where my mind went today:

Mr. New Settler was a very humble hard worker. He was the first one to settle in the New Land. Through much trials and experience he gained a lot of wisdom of how to handle many things. Like building a home, and providing food for his growing family. He lived continually with very selfless efforts and soon others flocked in. Since Mr. New Settler knew the work involved, he sacrificed time and resources to help and encourage other settlers moving into the area. He never made a fuss about a new settlers inability to accomplish some of the tasks that by now were easy for him but rather would humbly take any opportunity he could in helping others. He found joy in helping others avoid those mistakes he had made along the way of developing the land and home in which he lived.

His children grew up as hard working but without the pressure and concern of providing. Systems were in place to really support each other as time lead to a well functioning community.

By the time the grandchildren had come along they could not really be considered new settlers as they had grown up with luxuries that their grandparent Mr. New Settler never dreamed. By this time every one that lived in this community could see all the things that Mr. New Settler had done so well and in efforts to keep with those ideas and wisdom, they set standards that were to keep the community well ordered and functioning optimally. Natural nobody opposed these ideas as it is what they grew up with and it has always worked for them. There was much unity and peace. They flourished so much they were able to help others further out than Mr. New Settler ever did.

Then came along Mr. Newcomer to the community. He had read of the care and spirit of Mr. New Settler even though he had passed away by now.

Mr. Newcomers family worked hard like Mr. New Settler did in moving forward to get properly established and conform to the same standards that existed within the community. Mr. New Settler's now grown grandchildren were quite excited to have the Newcomers and gave encouragement. They often showed much gratefulness for the heritage and community passed down to them and carried much joy. They were a pleasure and a breath of fresh air to Mr. Newcomer and his family.
It was a big adjustment for Mr. Newcomer, he did not have the resources or the luxuries or even the knowledge that the community had. He looked to Mr. New Settler and his great humility in putting his shoulder to the wheel, that he read about. Mr. Newcomer worked with his family but starting out with nothing takes much effort and time. The community helped one another but held back from Mr. Newcomer while looking on and wondered if he possessed the same spirit that had made the community what it was? Many had come looking for a better life without wanting to put into the community and so the community was concerned by an inability to conform to the set standards that held a stability for the community.

By this time Mr. New Settler in fact would have been unable to live up to the standards of the very community that he started. He himself knew with his wisdom before his passing that it was never standards that made the community great but rather the care, love and help one to another in building each others lives together. This spirit was still present within the community towards one another but because of other dishonest newcomers the community as a whole did not reach out to those who were not too yet established but rather waited to see if newcomer's were going to reach the established standards.

Even though some seemed to accept Mr. Newcomer eventually the pressure to conform for him created a deep since of disillusionment in the community. It wasn't that he didn't want to conform, but rather that he still lacked the resources and skills, even if he was slowly moving in also becoming established. He could see hope at times of the servants heart Mr. New Settler had even past the pressure of the standards that Mr. New Settler's grandchildren had. He was very much motivated to do the same. Although Mr. Newcomer loved that community, standards, and the way they took care of each other, he finally succumbed to moving on in search of the spirit that the community once had in accepting others while also reaching out in helping others...

He was never in search to receive so he could meet standards, but rather so he could partake in being joined in that same giving Spirit - the very Spirit that made the community what it was...

I thinks this also speaks to the issue. Maybe more of the newcomer issue.

I am often asked do I have a garden and I say I do not know how to have a garden. Then later I am asked again do I have a garden.

I do not know the first thing about gardening and how to prepare the soil. I am a city girl. I see what they want us to do but I do not know how to do it. I do not know how they are doing it.

I think the disconnect is described well in the story above.

[silentreader]

Sudsy, here's the problem I have with how you're using Romans 14, and it may be a perception problem on my end but I keep coming back to this.
You are reading it to say that no one else should judge Sudsy in how Sudsy wants to practise and apply his faith in his daily walk, when it is actually saying, Sudsy, you should not judge any one else in how they want to practise and apply their faith in their daily walk.

...And I'm wondering if judgement as condemnation and judgement as discernment are getting confused. The one we have no right to do, the other is an essential part of the Christian walk.

Whew much to respond to. Had a busy day.

I see them one and the same. I am not to judge you in your spiritual growth during the sanctification process and you are not to judge me in this process. We are not talking here about judging each other regarding obvious, unrepentant sinning like that in 1 Cor 5 where someone was claiming to be a brother yet was obviously not a brother. In that case and cases like that, the scripture does say to make a judgment to not fellowship with this person. He is not showing the fruit of true repentance and has slipped into the fellowship and the Corinthian church was not dealing with it.

The difference in Romans 14, to me, is that this is not talking about sinning and judging each other's sins but rather judging how we each are learning to walk in the Spirit. This is where I think some church standards have erred. They go into areas of sanctification in a forced way when they should allow the Holy Spirit to work things out in His way and timing. I can be, for instance, a woman that choses not to wear a cape dress but if a minimum standard is set that I must wear one, then this is not a salvation issue but rather an issue regarding sanctification. I may see I can dress modestly without a cape dress, yet the fellowship is seeing me as in rebellion to authority, a major sin as if I am not a Christian ore a sin that can separate me from the group.

I don't know if I have explained this better but I am enjoying the challenges to what I post as it provides me more to consider in my beliefs. Now to respond to the next one. Fun eh ?

Hmmm...well I guess Vs. 11&12 will hold true for each of us.

[Josh]

City and country people both belong in the kingdom of heaven.

A retired minister at church said that perhaps God let me live the life I have, because I can go places that wouldn't make sense for him to go, and reach and touch unchurched people who wouldn't ever meet or listen to ethnic, rural Mennonites.

I am blessed tho to be around a thriving rural culture and rural people share their blessings and bounty with me. Of course I try to share my urban gifts and talents too - one of which is good discernment about the snares technology and fast paced urban life can spring on the unwary.

[Sudsy]

Sudsy, if you tried to dress modestly in a cape dress it might be more than just a sanctification issue.

No doubt.

[ken_sylvania]

And for us, isn't the NT the bounds of what is acceptable without any further definition?

Based on some of the discussions we end up with here on MN, I must conclude that it isn't.
Seriously, though, I just have a really hard time wrapping my mind around what the problem is with mature believers helping young and new believers understand what obedience to NT commands looks like in practical life. To me, it seems cruel to insist that they figure it out on their own. Many of us who are in churches that have some written practical applications want input from our brethren to help us live out God's will consistently.

Basically it starts out being about the criteria of salvation, circumcision unnecessary. A salvation issue. Then a judgment was made to not trouble the new Gentile converts but ask them to support a couple areas that are upsetting some of the Jewish converts.

I can't agree with the idea that the four directives were given in an effort to avoid upsetting the Jewish converts. The command to abstain from immorality for certain was not. The command to not eat blood pre-dates the Mosaic law and I believe is binding on us today. Abstaining from eating things strangled is a practical application/extension of not eating blood, and refraining from meat offered to idols served to avoid the appearance of evil.

So, if you are saying this establishes a precedent to allow for standards of a non-sinful nature to be formed according to the culture and sensitivities of other believers, then lets give it a try. I could then say (sticking with the same example in the previous post) a standard should be that women should not wear cape dresses as the majority of Christian women do not and it does not fit in with our culture and by restraining (not a sin) they could fit in with most Christian women today who have found a way to be modernly modest. Who then is to set these standards ? A small minority of Christian women or the majority of Christian women who believe the term modesty needs no further definition ? Sorry, women, don't mean to pick on you, just using that for a sake of debate.

If you are in a church setting that has found an alternative style of modest clothing that works well, I'm not insisting that you change. Just be sure not to allow the world around you to set your standard for what is modest. If you define modest as being "an outfit that doesn't turn heads at Walmart" as I've heard expressed already, then you and I have different ideas about what modesty means.

OK, lets flip it around -
Pastor - "Lady you're drawing the wrong kind of attention by your outward adorning."
Member - "What do you mean?
Pastor - "The Bible tells us not to be drawing attention to ourselves by our outward adorning, which would include how different we dress from other Christian women who dress modestly"
Member - "What am I doing wrong? How am I drawing undue attention to myself?"
Pastor - "You're drawing the wrong kind of attention by your outward adorning. Paul was saying you are to draw attention by your meek and gentle spirit not by how you outwardly adorn yourself, albeit modest. I'm sure if you think about it you can understand what I mean. No further explanation needed."

You've very aptly illustrated my point. In a situation like this, we need to be able to discuss specifics. In the example I gave, the poor fellow getting reprimanded has no idea if the problem is hippie haircut, the fact that he's coming to church in a strap t-shirt, or if he ought to be getting rid of the rings in his nose, ears, and eyebrows. In your example, the lady has no idea if her pastor thinks she is wearing gold or pearls, or if he thinks her dress fabric was too expensive.

We have to be willing to be specific. We do it in all other areas in life. When I hire a payroll clerk, I expect to tell him/her in detail how to perform the tasks that I want done. I don't just hand over a bound volume of all the applicable laws, but I help to develop standard operating procedures to help avoid mistakes and comply with applicable laws. We work together, adjusting procedures at times in order to make them better. Church is somewhat similar.

In this I am not saying our religious practise is just between me and God as we are to encourage one another and pray for one another to press on to the goal set before us. To get our priorities on what Jesus said is a light unto the world - good deeds in that text. How we are to be known primariy for our exceptional love for one another. How we allow for our spiritual growth differences in sanctification according to Romans 14 and can still be united in Christ. Instead of replacing the law of Moses with a whole new set of laws we allow the Holy Spirit to work using those laws that are put in and developed in our hearts.

I do not think I'm supporting the individualism of our culture to do our own thing but rather supporting the individual sanctification that is going on in each of our lives by the Holy Spirit. At the end of it all it won't be how well we followed church standards but rather how we responded to the Spirit's guidance when He says this is the way to go walk ye in it. And I think this is why some Anabaptist fellowships tread very lightly with these standard requirements in sanctification.

You're kind of losing me on this whole differences in sanctification bit, especially so when you tie it to Romans 14. Are you suggesting that those who didn't observe the holy days were more sanctified than those who did, or the other way around? I don't see anything about different levels of sanctification in Romans 14. In general, either a person is sanctified or else he's not.

I'm sorry if I'm reading more individualism into your stance than what I should. Pretty much what I hear you saying is "If I decide between me and God that short pants and a strap t-shirt is an alright expression of modesty, nobody else has the right to tell me its not." To define Romans 14 that way just really flies in the face of all the other NT commands to exhort one another, submit to each other, etc.

[Josh]

It's painfully obvious we are suffering from a lack of help applying biblical principles to living.

When young people do the following, I don't think lifestyles are helping them follow Christ. I am puzzled why it is so important to some that the church establish zero guidelines prohibiting such things:

- Playing violent video games for hours

- Watching R rated movies, often with heavy violence, nudity, and blaspheming the Lord's name repeatedly

- Women and girls wearing yoga pants, yoga shorts, bikinis, etc.

- Sharing photos, selfies etc. of the above with the opposite sex

- Men and boys acquiring lots of handguns, often fairly expensive

- Posting great deals of selfies on social media

- Sharing videos and selfies on Snapchat in fairly intimate settings with the opposite sex

- Listening to music with themes that promote fornication, violence, or extremely degrading views of women

- Using foul language on a regular basis for humour, to fit in, etc.

- Spending a lot of time alone with someone of of the opposite sex without any accountability

The New Testament doesn't directly lay out rules about these things. But do you really think it's wrong to explain to young people that a Christian with fruits doesn't do those things, and submits sweetly when offered guidance and correction when he or she is slipping in these areas?

[RZehr]

And for us, isn't the NT the bounds of what is acceptable without any further definition ?

Let me ask you this: Does the church that believes that the "NT is the bounds of what is acceptable without any further definition" promote wearing the covering? Does it teach against wearing gold? Does it promote the holy kiss? Feet washing?
When all is boiled down, many people that think the way you are suggesting actually don't even believe in the bounds of the NT.