submission to the church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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ohio jones
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:Aha! I see Mennonites attending there, are you one of them OJ?
Actually there IS a park on one side of the parking lot- a very nice park with a walking trail- there's a path connected to the Church
If I visited, it would be as a Stealth Mennonite. But I'm glad to hear the name is not entirely out of context; Google Earth let me down on that.
Valerie wrote:But it is what it is today- the falling away precedes the Second Coming- it's beyond being "One" until the Marriage Supper of the Lamb-
If you've given up on working toward unity and just want to complain about it, I guess we can't stop you, but it does get repetitious. However, if you wanted to lead by example and attend a church that has broader connections instead of just being its own brand, that would give your words more weight. Then again, maybe they are part of the International Neo-Puritan Fellowship or something, and just keep that as difficult to find as the park. 8-)
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silentreader
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by silentreader »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:Aha! I see Mennonites attending there, are you one of them OJ?
Actually there IS a park on one side of the parking lot- a very nice park with a walking trail- there's a path connected to the Church
If I visited, it would be as a Stealth Mennonite. But I'm glad to hear the name is not entirely out of context; Google Earth let me down on that.
Valerie wrote:But it is what it is today- the falling away precedes the Second Coming- it's beyond being "One" until the Marriage Supper of the Lamb-
If you've given up on working toward unity and just want to complain about it, I guess we can't stop you, but it does get repetitious. However, if you wanted to lead by example and attend a church that has broader connections instead of just being its own brand, that would give your words more weight. Then again, maybe they are part of the International Neo-Puritan Fellowship or something, and just keep that as difficult to find as the park. 8-)
Perhaps one of the mistakes we have made is attempting to legislate unity. This is not possible. It is possible, although obviously difficult, to legislate uniformity, but this does not necessarily produce unity. True Christian unity is only possible through the work of the Holy Spirit.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

silentreader wrote:Perhaps one of the mistakes we have made is attempting to legislate unity. This is not possible. It is possible, although obviously difficult, to legislate uniformity, but this does not necessarily produce unity. True Christian unity is only possible through the work of the Holy Spirit.
:clap:
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silentreader
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by silentreader »

silentreader wrote:
Perhaps one of the mistakes we have made is attempting to legislate unity. This is not possible. It is possible, although obviously difficult, to legislate uniformity, but this does not necessarily produce unity. True Christian unity is only possible through the work of the Holy Spirit.
My opinions are getting me into a lot of trouble on another thread, maybe because it's Monday. But I would like to voice a further opinion relative to the above. I've been avoiding posting on the standards vs. reality thread because there have been some thoughts and opinions posted there which trouble me deeply.

There is room for, and actually a need for, some diversity in the church body. Some of what I think I sensed in the other thread I would call an intentional individuality, which, depending on the degree that it is insisted on, becomes problematic when trying to attain or maintain unity in the church body.
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

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silentreader wrote:My opinions are getting me into a lot of trouble on another thread, maybe because it's Monday. But I would like to voice a further opinion relative to the above. I've been avoiding posting on the standards vs. reality thread because there have been some thoughts and opinions posted there which trouble me deeply.

There is room for, and actually a need for, some diversity in the church body. Some of what I think I sensed in the other thread I would call an intentional individuality, which, depending on the degree that it is insisted on, becomes problematic when trying to attain or maintain unity in the church body.
Can you elaborate?
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silentreader
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by silentreader »

Josh wrote:
silentreader wrote:My opinions are getting me into a lot of trouble on another thread, maybe because it's Monday. But I would like to voice a further opinion relative to the above. I've been avoiding posting on the standards vs. reality thread because there have been some thoughts and opinions posted there which trouble me deeply.

There is room for, and actually a need for, some diversity in the church body. Some of what I think I sensed in the other thread I would call an intentional individuality, which, depending on the degree that it is insisted on, becomes problematic when trying to attain or maintain unity in the church body.
Can you elaborate?
I really don't care to, you may accept or reject my opinion as you wish. Reading through the standards vs. reality thread and especially some of the thinking on Romans 14 brought back some pretty unpleasant memories.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Sudsy wrote:I'm curious as to how Romans 14 is interpreted by those who stress submitting to the local church in areas of sanctification. To me this says we, in the church, are to accept one another's sanctification practises and try not to be a stumblingblock in another's walk with God ? If correct, then when leadership strays from Romans 14, are we to still submit to that kind of leadership ?
First off, let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with the Apostle Peter, when he says that some things in Paul's epistles are hard to understand. If Romans 14:1-14 is extracted from its context and examined as a policy all on its own will be confusing and lead one into error, potentially including individualism and rebellion. At first glance, these verses to seem to suggest a live-and-let-live mentality, where everybody does their own thing and we all get along famously.

But is that really what it means? I don't think that it does.

Let's take a look at the context. Romans 14 is really a continuation of a thought chain begun in Romans 13. In Romans 13, Paul discusses a variety of practical ways in which godliness manifests itself, such as obedience to the rulers of the land, and paying tribute. Stresses the importance of loving each other, and points out how that the commands of the law are all encapsulated in the command to love our neighbors as ourselves. He exhorts us to walk honestly, not engaging in the worlds practices of pleasing ourselves, but rather "putting on the Lord Jesus Christ."

At this point, Paul moves on to discuss two very sensitive issues, that of eating meat (likely referring to ceremonially unclean meat, or else meat offered to idols, it's not clear) and that of observing the holy days of the Jewish law. These were issues that the Apostles had already made a ruling on. They had been divisive issues ever since the first Gentiles received the Holy Ghost and were brought into the church. The leaders of the church had gathered together and made a decision, discerning that the Lord's will was to not require adherence to these points of the OT law.

Notice how gently Paul instructs the believers to treat each other on this issue. In verse 1, he instructs those holding to the official church position (which provided an allowance for this contentious practice) to accept those who weren't comfortable with this allowance and not to argue with them. He instructs those who aren't comfortable with the official church position not to be argumentative and judgmental of those who aren't as strict as they but are within the limits of the decrees issued by the elders at Jerusalem.

After this, from 14:15 - 15:7, he goes on to exhort the brethren not to insist on what they think are their liberties in Christ. He pleads with the brethren to bear each other's infirmities, to not place stumbling blocks in each others' way, and to ensure that in exercising their liberty in Christ that they don't provide excuse for others to speak evil of the gospel.

I am privileged to have had the opportunity to see this admonition lived out in real life. Christians who come together, binding their hearts one to another, working together to understand how God would have them show love to those about them and live out the faith in such a way that it gives a clear testimony to the world about them. Certain applications which they believe to aid in maintaining godly practice have been reduced to writing, helping to bring clarity to issues as well as providing a fixed reference point to help counter the tendency for practice to drift. Those specific applications which have been reduced to writing only encompass a small percentage of the daily decisions that the members of these groups make. In these other areas, the members draw their personal lines at various places, loving, caring for, and appreciating each other regardless of their differences regarding specific application.

In those areas where there the group has come to an agreement on a minimum standard, many members have drawn their own line somewhat back from that minimum standard, but do not pass judgement on all who don't apply exactly the same line they do. An example might be observance of Good Friday. Some observe it similar to Sunday, taking off from work and going to church services. Others might take a family vacation, others might treat it as a regular work day. Another example might be shopping at a place like Cabella's or Bass Pro Shops. Some would shun such places, not wanting to be seen in a place which traffics so unapologetically in things that appeal to the vanity of man. Others would have no problem stopping in to pick up a needed item, while others might have no problem browsing more extensively. All, however, treat each other as brethren and mutual love and appreciation flows.

There is also recognition that certain applications adopted on a group level don't necessarily reflect right vs. wrong so much as allow a common uniform practice, and within certain boundaries, others from outside that group who might apply the same biblical command with a different application can be accepted as brethren in Christ.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

silentreader wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Perhaps one of the mistakes we have made is attempting to legislate unity. This is not possible. It is possible, although obviously difficult, to legislate uniformity, but this does not necessarily produce unity. True Christian unity is only possible through the work of the Holy Spirit.
My opinions are getting me into a lot of trouble on another thread, maybe because it's Monday. But I would like to voice a further opinion relative to the above. I've been avoiding posting on the standards vs. reality thread because there have been some thoughts and opinions posted there which trouble me deeply.

There is room for, and actually a need for, some diversity in the church body. Some of what I think I sensed in the other thread I would call an intentional individuality, which, depending on the degree that it is insisted on, becomes problematic when trying to attain or maintain unity in the church body.
I started the other thread as I wanted to see what is normal and what is not. Like I have said in another thread I was raised in the church as well as my Husband but this is a new world. It is hard to explain but I will try.

When we came this way it was with much warning from other Christians. I do not want to offend anyone but a lot of people including other Christians think that plain groups are cults. There is a mystery about plain groups and a lot of people are wary. We were asked why we would join a cult or even consider going to a church like that.

I have found myself defending Anabaptists a lot even though there is a lot I do not know myself. Obviously, I know Anabaptists are Christian but for me I wanted to make sure I was going towards something that would bring me closer to God and not away. For that reason, we asked a lot of questions. We wanted to make sure we were making the right decision and not getting into something wrong.

Which is why a lot of my questions are why this or that? I am trying to figure out what is scriptural, and what is tradition. How people think about things? What is different and what is the same. I need to understand what I am doing so I can explain it to others, and my children. If the position is not scriptural and more for prevention I need to know that.

These discussions really help. I know the thinking where I came from but not necessarily here. Understanding culture takes time. I think all people tend to assume a lot but I think that is why discussion and questions are so important to know where each other is coming from.

One of the things that was unfortunate for us was one of the standards was that we not have Internet. So, when we joined I stopped going to MD. I explained what happened in the other thread but I think if I was able to come on here and ask it would have prevented a lot of confusion for us. I have already received understanding on issues I could not get a clear answer to with five years in.

I understand you do not care to elaborate but I just want everyone to know I appreciate everyone's help.
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

Telebody's experience matches my own 100%.

And I didn't come in as a Christian either. Strangely enough once I changed from being a fornicator and a drunkard to attend a plain church, many of my nominal Christian friends suddenly were concerned for my spiritual condition.
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

One thing I hear in Tele and Wade's posts is the agony of trying to become part of ultra conservative congregations. It just doesn't work.

I wish more seekers ended up in less conservative settings. My own group I think has a better approach for seekers and isn't severely conservative, and we are pretty geographically distributed. But for many people the only plain church options are CGCM or ultra conservative.
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