submission to the church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:The difference, I suppose, is that we feel church membership goes hand in hand with commitment, brotherhood and church.
I believe that one would find pretty much across the board, as churches become more individualistic, the importance of formal membership lessens, and variation in beliefs and practices become greater.

Why wouldn't one join a church? I can't think of a good reason not to, if it's good enough to regularly attend.
I have only been an official member of one local church in my life and to be a member there was to go through a short ceremony of welcome to 'have my name on the roll'. I was extended the 'hand of fellowship' and shook the hand of other members. That was it. No church covenant or promise to believe what that group believed.

Since then I have my reservations of being part of any official church membership that defines me as something unique from other Christians in the Church that Jesus has as His Bride, the universal Church. The early churches were unique by location only and when they started to break into other defined groups (followes of a preferred teacher, Paul, Peter) they were warned not to. Today we have thousands of groups that go about defining themselves in some unique ways that I think has done more harm than good. The New Testament actually tells us nothing about becoming “church members.” It only speaks about being “members of Christ” (1 Cor. 6:15) and “members of the body of Christ” (1 Cor. 12:27). I realize that most involved in local churches take this official membership as something they tie in with water baptism. Don't see this in scripture either.

I still believe in local church communities and operating as members in Christ in that community. I believe commitment, brotherhood and church can be had without all these specially defined add ons. To me official church membership is man made and unnecessary. I see too many folks using this and their baptism as their 'good to go' salvation. And often members sign covenants full of obligations governing the conduct of the member. Can't find that in scripture either. So, I'm a non-conformist in this area. I can't wait for trhe day that Jesus will come back and destroy all this division.

I grew up in a church without an official church membership and the church operated quite well so that is another reason. So, that is why, if allowed to, I prefer to be part of a community fellowship without joining as an 'official member' of that church. However, if it blocked a ministry I could be part of, I would consider just what that church required to be a member and if I could accept that in good conscience, I would have to give this more consideration.
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RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

I think we have two subjects overlapping here.
1. Should a person be willing to be part of a church? I think so.
2. Should a church have membership? I think it is the best way to know who they are. Its practical.

Okay, if a church doesn't have members, then sure I can understand not joining. That wasn't the scenario that I had in mind.

Here is my problem with a church not having official membership: I believe to function as a church should, then you need to know who is part of the church and who is not. And I do believe that you can have a church without official membership and still know who is part and who is not. But at that point, why wouldn't you just have a member list and be done with it? I makes little sense to me to consider a member whoever attends regularly. How does that work? What happens when the person attending for a long time doesn't want to consider himself a member and the rest do? Is there any choice in the matter?

What is the difference? Frankly, I believe sometimes it is as simple as people ultimately not willing to submit and listen to anyone but themselves. These are Christians that want all the benefits that a church offers, and none of the commitment.
But I will add this caveat - I'm sure it depends on what is normal for a given church. In churches that don't value official membership, I really don't have experience with them and I’m not accusing people in those churches of these undesirable attributes. My experience is with churches that do value official membership, this is what I'm talking about.

I see church membership as a separate issue than breaking up into denominations. But, sometimes people that refuse to join a church, seem to be basically saying that they are their own denomination. While they aren't following Menno, or Aman, they may be following Self? (Again, I'm talking about people that are at a church that values official membership, not people that attend a church that does not value official membership.)

I have an evangelical friend that says membership is mostly about status. Being able to sort of brag that you are a member of such and such a church. If that is your perspective, then sure, I can understand questioning the value in membership. But for me it shows commitment and submission to each other, and is not a badge to show off.
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

Wow... I am not sure where to start here... I came down with a stomach virus this week and while I was in bed I was reading as many threads as possible in between sleep. I came across this one and thought as soon as I feel up to it I should say something.

I have so many thoughts I am not sure I can make them clear but here it goes.

1. A lot of the things mentioned as deal breakers would never cross my mind as a reason to not attend a church. There is not a perfect church anywhere. It would have to be issues of false teachings, corrupt leadership, and not acting in Christ's love that would cause me to leave. Then I would have to consider if leaving would be letting the devil win.

This is what really bothered me coming in from a more liberal church. I was expected to submit no matter what but one inch the other way and people would leave in righteousness indignation. What makes their concern more righteousness than mine?

2. Membership. Asking why someone would attend a church they do not want to be a member of is a question that I do not understand why would be asked.

A. Maybe they do not agree with the standards your church requires and there is not any other reasonable option for them. Should they just stay home and not go anywhere? Why should they join when they know they can not carry out the duties of membership as this particular church wants when this very thread has people ready to leave based on separate service times? Should we not be glad for them just coming and not expect anything thing but the opportunity to share the gospel?

B. Maybe everything is new to them. God works on people with perfect timing. This could be slow to us, but it is not for us to decide how fast someone else's walk should be. He brings people to us, the last thing we need to do is make them feel as if they are not moving fast enough or need to decide now. If decisions are rushed it is not a committed decision and people will often resent the choice made under stress.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:Wow... I am not sure where to start here... I came down with a stomach virus this week and while I was in bed I was reading as many threads as possible in between sleep. I came across this one and thought as soon as I feel up to it I should say something.

I have so many thoughts I am not sure I can make them clear but here it goes.

1. A lot of the things mentioned as deal breakers would never cross my mind as a reason to not attend a church. There is not a perfect church anywhere. It would have to be issues of false teachings, corrupt leadership, and not acting in Christ's love that would cause me to leave. Then I would have to consider if leaving would be letting the devil win.
True, there is not perfect church anywhere, but neither do we drink soda pop all the time just because there is no food anywhere that is perfectly "healthy."
At some point, we do need to look at the balance of how interested a church actually is in obeying the Word of God and drawing close to him,and whether close association with it will help us or hinder us in our Christian walk. Some of the items mentioned are fruits that can help us know the hearts of the church members.
TeleBodyofChrist wrote: This is what really bothered me coming in from a more liberal church. I was expected to submit no matter what but one inch the other way and people would leave in righteousness indignation. What makes their concern more righteousness than mine?
Sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that you think we shouldn't care if our church is discarding practices that help us to live closer to God and replacing them with practices designed to appeal to the carnal nature of man?
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

ken_sylvania wrote:True, there is not perfect church anywhere, but neither do we drink soda pop all the time just because there is no food anywhere that is perfectly "healthy."

At some point, we do need to look at the balance of how interested a church actually is in obeying the Word of God and drawing close to him,and whether close association with it will help us or hinder us in our Christian walk. Some of the items mentioned are fruits that can help us know the hearts of the church members.
I think we both agree on the Church obeying the word of God. I think the difference on thoughts is the opinion that a list of practices show the fruit. Anyone can do the right things at the right time and give the appearance of righteousness. Man looks outward and God looks inward.

I think the Church's feeling on the word is a really good indicator on what to expect.
ken_sylvania wrote:
TeleBodyofChrist wrote: This is what really bothered me coming in from a more liberal church. I was expected to submit no matter what but one inch the other way and people would leave in righteousness indignation. What makes their concern more righteousness than mine?
Sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that you think we shouldn't care if our church is discarding practices that help us to live closer to God and replacing them with practices designed to appeal to the carnal nature of man?
No, but I am saying that this is the problem:

The automatic assumption that going an inch the other way is appealing to the carnal nature of man.

Again, what makes their concern more righteousness than mine? Why do I need to submit yet they do not?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:True, there is not perfect church anywhere, but neither do we drink soda pop all the time just because there is no food anywhere that is perfectly "healthy."

At some point, we do need to look at the balance of how interested a church actually is in obeying the Word of God and drawing close to him,and whether close association with it will help us or hinder us in our Christian walk. Some of the items mentioned are fruits that can help us know the hearts of the church members.
I think we both agree on the Church obeying the word of God. I think the difference on thoughts is the opinion that a list of practices show the fruit. Anyone can do the right things at the right time and give the appearance of righteousness. Man looks outward and God looks inward.

I think the Church's feeling on the word is a really good indicator on what to expect.
ken_sylvania wrote:
TeleBodyofChrist wrote: This is what really bothered me coming in from a more liberal church. I was expected to submit no matter what but one inch the other way and people would leave in righteousness indignation. What makes their concern more righteousness than mine?
Sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that you think we shouldn't care if our church is discarding practices that help us to live closer to God and replacing them with practices designed to appeal to the carnal nature of man?
No, but I am saying that this is the problem:

The automatic assumption that going an inch the other way is appealing to the carnal nature of man.

Again, what makes their concern more righteousness than mine? Why do I need to submit yet they do not?
Not knowing your specific circumstances, I'm not willing to suggest that I can answer your question.

If you don't like the assumption that moving an inch away from Godly practices is appealing to the carnal nature of man, what would you propose? A foot? A yard? A mile?

Again, not to speak to your specific circumstances, I would say that in general the Conservative Anabaptist practice (and New Testament practice) is for the individual to submit to the collective group, and not to expect the group to submit to a single individual.
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

ken_sylvania wrote: Not knowing your specific circumstances, I'm not willing to suggest that I can answer your question.

If you don't like the assumption that moving an inch away from Godly practices is appealing to the carnal nature of man, what would you propose? A foot? A yard? A mile?

Again, not to speak to your specific circumstances, I would say that in general the Conservative Anabaptist practice (and New Testament practice) is for the individual to submit to the collective group, and not to expect the group to submit to a single individual.
I am not sure how specific circumstances are needed as this is a general question. No one said anything about moving away from Godly practices.

Are you suggesting that having separate Sunday schools or split service times are moving away from Godly practices? Are you suggesting the practices have more authority than the word? I am confused.

I am specifically talking about the obvious difference in the way we are thinking or looking at things. I do not want to be repetitive but I feel like for some reason I am being misunderstood and hopefully it will be clear this time.

If someone comes in from a church that was more liberal MB or NMB they are expected to submit. If they were to say I feel that the standards here are not fill in the blank, the church tends to see it as they are not willing to submit to the church or God.

Now if we flip this situation to someone who is already a member of said church. Maybe they have raised a family in this church. The church as a group has collectively decided to change a standard a little opposite of what it is now. Maybe more liberal than before. Now this individual decides they are not going to submit. The new standard is not going against God's word or ungodly they just they do not like it. How is it okay for this individual not submit to the church?

I am honestly trying to understand this way of thinking as I do not understand it and have seen it happen in a few churches. Each time the members who left did so in righteousness indignation. The churches accepted it and did not imply that the members were not willing to submit as I have seen them do to others from outside, and have experienced when we came in.

Surely, I am not the only one who has noticed this? Anyone? :)
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ken_sylvania
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote: Not knowing your specific circumstances, I'm not willing to suggest that I can answer your question.

If you don't like the assumption that moving an inch away from Godly practices is appealing to the carnal nature of man, what would you propose? A foot? A yard? A mile?

Again, not to speak to your specific circumstances, I would say that in general the Conservative Anabaptist practice (and New Testament practice) is for the individual to submit to the collective group, and not to expect the group to submit to a single individual.
I am not sure how specific circumstances are needed as this is a general question. No one said anything about moving away from Godly practices.

Are you suggesting that having separate Sunday schools or split service times are moving away from Godly practices? Are you suggesting the practices have more authority than the word? I am confused.

I am specifically talking about the obvious difference in the way we are thinking or looking at things. I do not want to be repetitive but I feel like for some reason I am being misunderstood and hopefully it will be clear this time.

If someone comes in from a church that was more liberal MB or NMB they are expected to submit. If they were to say I feel that the standards here are not fill in the blank, the church tends to see it as they are not willing to submit to the church or God.

Now if we flip this situation to someone who is already a member of said church. Maybe they have raised a family in this church. The church as a group has collectively decided to change a standard a little opposite of what it is now. Maybe more liberal than before. Now this individual decides they are not going to submit. The new standard is not going against God's word or ungodly they just they do not like it. How is it okay for this individual not submit to the church?

I am honestly trying to understand this way of thinking as I do not understand it and have seen it happen in a few churches. Each time the members who left did so in righteousness indignation. The churches accepted it and did not imply that the members were not willing to submit as I have seen them do to others from outside, and have experienced when we came in.

Surely, I am not the only one who has noticed this? Anyone? :)
In a broad sense, a more conservative practice is often considered a higher standard than a liberal standard. Liberal drift is viewed as drifting away from God. We tend to be much more hesitant to accuse a person of being unsubmissive if they are maintaining a prior, more conservative, position than if they were to insist on a more liberal practice. I don't know if this helps at all or not.
TeleBodyofChrist wrote:No one said anything about moving away from Godly practices.
Um, I thought that was what the OP was about. Soloist asked
At what point is a practice or a belief sinful/wrong enough to leave a church?
TeleBodyofChrist wrote: Are you suggesting that having separate Sunday schools or split service times are moving away from Godly practices? Are you suggesting the practices have more authority than the word? I am confused.
Separate Sunday schools faced fierce opposition when they were first introduced in Mennonite churches. As originally implemented, they did cause some problems. At times a lack of proper oversight resulted in unsound teachers being used who ended up teaching false doctrine to the children and young people of the church. I don't have a problem with Sunday school myself, but I can appreciate the concern that some have regarding the practice, and understand why they would consider a move to it a move toward a less safe practice.
The split service times that were mentioned in this thread had to do with having a traditional service at one time and a "contemporary" service at another time. The only contemporary service I was ever in certainly seemed to lack godliness, so yes, I would consider such a move a move away from Godly practices.
The same would apply to a change allowing women to cut their hair, allowing members to wear jewelry, or allowing drunkards to be members in good standing.
No practices don't have more authority than the Word, but holding to proven traditions has served the church well over time and will continue to do so.
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

ken_sylvania wrote: In a broad sense, a more conservative practice is often considered a higher standard than a liberal standard. Liberal drift is viewed as drifting away from God. We tend to be much more hesitant to accuse a person of being unsubmissive if they are maintaining a prior, more conservative, position than if they were to insist on a more liberal practice. I don't know if this helps at all or not.
Yes, it does. Thank you.

ken_sylvania wrote:
TeleBodyofChrist wrote:No one said anything about moving away from Godly practices.
Um, I thought that was what the OP was about. Soloist asked
At what point is a practice or a belief sinful/wrong enough to leave a church?
I was talking about myself, but I can see now what you were talking about. I was confused for a moment there as I did not say that.
ken_sylvania wrote: Separate Sunday schools faced fierce opposition when they were first introduced in Mennonite churches. As originally implemented, they did cause some problems. At times a lack of proper oversight resulted in unsound teachers being used who ended up teaching false doctrine to the children and young people of the church. I don't have a problem with Sunday school myself, but I can appreciate the concern that some have regarding the practice, and understand why they would consider a move to it a move toward a less safe practice.
The split service times that were mentioned in this thread had to do with having a traditional service at one time and a "contemporary" service at another time. The only contemporary service I was ever in certainly seemed to lack godliness, so yes, I would consider such a move a move away from Godly practices.
The same would apply to a change allowing women to cut their hair, allowing members to wear jewelry, or allowing drunkards to be members in good standing.
No practices don't have more authority than the Word, but holding to proven traditions has served the church well over time and will continue to do so.
I have thought that about Sunday school myself as well so I can see how that would be a concern. Especially, the little ones. When we have attended services that were split they were done to accommodate the size of the church. The church grew to a size that everyone could not fit into the sanctuary at the same time.

Now some churches do have different styles. For example, the early rise service is usually the elderly so, they create a style that appeals to them. It is usually more hymns. Probably the most similar to a traditional Mennonite service. Then the 11 am service would be the younger crowd. The ones that are not early risers. They tend to like the contemporary style. Mainly it is lively designed to keep their attention.

It was not like that at first but changed to different styles over time. I have not been to an Anabaptist church that does this yet but I know that the reasoning was to reach more people for Christ.

I do not have a feeling about either style one way or the other. The church I grew up in was actually much more lively and served God with all their hearts.
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Wade »

ken_sylvania wrote: Again, not to speak to your specific circumstances, I would say that in general the Conservative Anabaptist practice (and New Testament practice) is for the individual to submit to the collective group, and not to expect the group to submit to a single individual.
Could you share why you believe it is New Testament practice?

I think I know what you are trying to say but yet the scriptures continually say to submit to one another. It is reciprocal.

[bible]Romans 14,1[/bible]
[bible]Romans 14,17-23[/bible]
[bible]Romans 15,1[/bible]
[bible]Romans 15,7 [/bible]
[bible]1 Peter 5,3-7[/bible]

It is reciprocal because we have in fact submitted to the One true God.

[bible]Romans 16,17[/bible]
Last edited by Wade on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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