submission to the church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Soloist
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submission to the church?

Post by Soloist »

I've asked this question before from some people and normally I don't get clear answers because people don't really have a good answer and I figured what thoughts ya'll have couldn't be any worse :D

At what point is a practice or a belief sinful/wrong enough to leave a church?

Example,
1: the church has no stance against drinking of alcohol.
2:A church has a band.
3: A church has split Sunday school rather then joined.
4: Split seating.
5: satan being an angel or not an angel
6: cut hair for women versus uncut hair
6: you name it....

My thinking is there has to be a point when something that doesn't sit well with someone they need to draw the line but how do we know when the line is crossed? This is like church splits in a much smaller frame.
The original Anabaptist's left over things that went counter to the Bible like "infant baptism", "just war" and others and chose not to submit to the church. I've heard it said "these things don't matter but the choices on some of these issues reflect the heart" I view everyone on a spectrum of legalism to grace/permissive. Both ends in my mind are wrong and somethings really don't matter. The old order for instance believing that the great commission doesn't apply anymore (at least some of them) would be something I could never be part of. Given that the Anabaptist look at Scripture as a little of the brotherhood+Holy Spirit being needed to interpret things recorded how do we deal with interpretive differences?
What if the Nationwide churches said head-coverings was wrong and it was the hair? :laugh Okay so maybe not... but you hopefully get my point and the question. (forgive my grammar, wife is out atm)
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Hats Off
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Hats Off »

There are many people in Old Order churches that do believe in the great commission. However because of hesitation by leadership to endorse mission, most with mission interests are in the supporting mode. So while this is something I would like to see promoted more, our younger people are getting involved in a way that will not split the church while still pointing to more actively seeking mission participation.
For me, things like divorce and remarriage, the loss of non-resistance and non-conformity would make me change.
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Soloist
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Soloist »

Hats Off wrote: For me, things like divorce and remarriage, the loss of non-resistance and non-conformity would make me change.
Thats the catch for me... what is the extent of non-resistance? Seems like some it means don't join the military, some don't defend your possessions, some don't defend their own children. Where is the Biblical line here? is it wrong to fellowship with someone that would seek to defend their own children? is it wrong to fellowship with someone who argues on internet forums? :mrgreen:
I heard about this one once, a member of a church tied up a thief and called the cops...

Non-conformity would be the next thought, at what point? hat brim sizes? loss of cape dresses? loss of head covering?

Divorce and remarriage... which version of this stance to hold to? is there room to permit other versions? aka someone who marries a divorced person, they separate and the first wants to get remarried? or they did already get remarried?
The second person went back to their first spouse or refuses to...
To state it bluntly, its terribly confusing on some of these issues that seem to have been argued for years with out clear answers when the Bible is not crystal clear.
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Ernie
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Ernie »

Soloist wrote: Example,
1: the church has no stance against drinking of alcohol.
2:A church has a band.
3: A church has split Sunday school rather then joined.
4: Split seating.
5: satan being an angel or not an angel
6: cut hair for women versus uncut hair
7: you name it....
I would not want to be in a church where members are permitted to keep firearms or knives, etc. for self defense.
I would not want to be in a church where members are fans of professional sports, teams, or players.
I would not want to be in a church where the ladies cut their hair short and do not cover their heads during worship. [If they cover their heads by putting their long hair up like some conservative Pentecostals, I would feel it is a misunderstanding of the N.T. (just like those who think the NT favors pouring for baptism), but would believe that God honors their attempt at obedience.]
I would not want to be in a church that does not sing songs, hymns, and spiritual songs. Any church that uses worship as a time to showcase talent and performance and to feed the old man would be reason for me to leave.
Allowing social drinking (that caused people to lose their mental judgement at times) would be reason for me to leave.
I don't understand what you are referring to when you talk about "split Sunday School".
I would not want to be part of a church that permitted remarriage after divorce. I believe the scripture teaches that partners should seek restoration or remain celibate. All the fine controversial details of who is in an adulterous situation is not as important to me as whether the church is clearly condemning adultery and not allowing its members to remarry and still be given the right hand of fellowship.

I find it interesting that in the letters to the churches in Revelation, Jesus does not tell the faithful to find another church or start a new one but rather to hold fast the things that remain.
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Soloist
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Soloist »

by split Sunday school I'm referring to how some churches keep their children with them for all the services both Sunday school and the sermon and split would have separate for Sunday school. The children would all have Sunday school teachers and women would go off to one area, men to another. Often there is a joint class for the adults as well. I've seen both versions and I personally don't have a problem with either way. I guess if I had to reword the question to be more focused,

What have you had/chose to submit to the church on that you have disagreed with?
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Hats Off
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Hats Off »

Arguing on internet forums would definitely be off base! :mrgreen: Non-resistance to me is a way of life that would automatically preclude military service. I would not want to decide exactly what is acceptable and what isn't. I would certainly call police if my house was broken into - I would justify doing it based upon my obligation to my neighbours and the law. I do not protect myself when I am attacked, but then I know that I am not very capable of that so the temptation isn't there. I don't automatically quit fellowship with someone who holds opinions that differ from my own - I respect your right to your opinion as long as it doesn't go completely against non-resistance. However, I also appreciate the right to have my own opinion.

On non-conformity issues, I have a hat with a wide brim and another with a narrow brim. I greet many men as brothers even if they don't wear a hat. I greet brothers that do not wear a plain suit or even wear a tie. I would not greet as brothers those men whose wives were free to not wear a covering, or who would wear pants instead of a dress. If the person failed to have a non-resistant attitude about their lack of non-conformity, that would be a deal breaker for me. (Isn't it rather weird that we can accept men who dress "worldly" but wouldn't accept them if their wives were just as "worldly?"

We had a couple coming to church for a while - they had a large family - but he also had a child from a previous marriage. I would have accepted the couple into the church based on their history; but of course that would never have happened. I would have reaffirmed that we do not support divorce and remarriage - which is exactly what this man taught - but I would have accepted them if for no other reason than for the benefit of all those children. But for anyone raised in the church, divorce and remarriage would not be an option! I would make it a matter of context - what is the situation. However, bad choices will often result in ongoing bad situations.

To a large extend I also agree with Ernie's comments above.
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Martin
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Martin »

Hats Off wrote:There are many people in Old Order churches that do believe in the great commission. However because of hesitation by leadership to endorse mission, most with mission interests are in the supporting mode. So while this is something I would like to see promoted more, our younger people are getting involved in a way that will not split the church while still pointing to more actively seeking mission participation.
For me, things like divorce and remarriage, the loss of non-resistance and non-conformity would make me change.
Old Orders and Amish contribute heavily to CAM. Also, I respect those who have hesitations about mission work. The Mennonites who were mission oriented in the past have assimilated into the world, and I don't really see a different path with present-day Mennonites. Many will be assimilated in a few years as well.
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Hats Off
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Hats Off »

We have had a number of young people working in mission. I made a point of telling one young man upon his return home that he was an ambassador for those of us who feel doing more such work would be beneficial. He married, settled down, and was a visitor in our church on Sunday. It is always a joy to meet young people like this couple.
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RZehr
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by RZehr »

Soloist wrote:I've asked this question before from some people and normally I don't get clear answers because people don't really have a good answer and I figured what thoughts ya'll have couldn't be any worse :D

At what point is a practice or a belief sinful/wrong enough to leave a church?

Example,
1: the church has no stance against drinking of alcohol.
2:A church has a band.
3: A church has split Sunday school rather then joined.
4: Split seating.
5: satan being an angel or not an angel
6: cut hair for women versus uncut hair
6: you name it....
There are a couple other factors that I would need to consider.
What are my other church options?
What is the direction this church is headed? Do I have confidence that it has its focus right?

For myself, I would want to be in tune enough with my church that I can sense the direction it is headed, and leave, long before it begins condoning actual sin.
If I have lost confidence in the direction the church it is going, then if they start or stop something as small (in my mind) as split seating, then I may leave. But I wouldn't be leaving over the seating arrangements at all. I would be leaving because of different vision, or direction. The seating issue would just be a side issue, really. But this would also depend on my other church options.

1. Alcohol - I think I could go to a church that had no official stance on alcohol, providing alcohol isn't a regular part of their life. I'd have a hard time going to a church where they drank socially.
2. Band - I'm out, not a fan. While it obviously isn't in the Scripture, a band is so far out of my frame of reference that I'd leave. Not for me.
3. Sunday School - No opinion, not an issue.
4. Split seating - Doesn't rate high enough to be a pro or con for me.
5. Satan - On these types of questions, it would depend on how dogmatic people are. Do they disagree respectfully? Is holding these "smaller" beliefs a litmus test?
6. Cut hair - Are we talking about trimming the very end to make it even, or easier to comb, in a way that since it is covered no one sees it anyway or something like that? Or are we talking about cutting it shoulder length and not covering? If the first, I probably wouldn't leave over that. If the second, I would leave.
6. Fred. Is Fred a good enough name for it?
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Josh
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Re: submission to the church?

Post by Josh »

For me, I chose to separate over adultery or apparent adultery (married brother involved with a divorced sister).
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