Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
cmbl
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by cmbl »

Bootstrap wrote: Fascinating.

As someone who has been Mennonite most of my adult life, I heard it from evangelicals.
That fascinates me as well. To expand a bit on my experience, I definitely would have heard things about the present or the future, e.g., if you've really been saved, you will do this or not do that, but treating salvation itself as something in a present-continuing or future tense seemed a new idea to me. (Other people, of course, may have different experiences).
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Bootstrap »

cmbl wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Fascinating.

As someone who has been Mennonite most of my adult life, I heard it from evangelicals.
That fascinates me as well. To expand a bit on my experience, I definitely would have heard things about the present or the future, e.g., if you've really been saved, you will do this or not do that, but treating salvation itself as something in a present-continuing or future tense seemed a new idea to me. (Other people, of course, may have different experiences).
It's a great teaching. Wherever we each heard it ;->
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by lesterb »

Sudsy wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:Neto, I think a number of us can relate to your church experience even in quite conservative Mennonite settings. But because it is a hybrid of sorts it leaves some of us who somehow need a logical trail to follow, confused.

The other thing that Nolt didn't point out, and I think is fairly significant here too is; what does salvation mean to the historical Amish?
I think here too is a big difference between the evangelical and Anabaptist understanding. Salvation to the revivalist/evangelical is saving from eternal damnation. That is part of it for the historical Anabaptist, but more concretely and tangibly salvation is being saved from the evil world. This dualism is quite strong in Anabaptism. There is only two ways, the kingdom of darkness, or the kingdom of light, the broad way or the narrow way.
So salvation means that everything has been corrupted by humanity and depending how you live means you will be saved from it and will receive the crown of life eternal if you have been faithful. This salvation has been granted through the blood of Jesus on the cross and is a gift of God's grace. The Holy Sprirt guides the individual with the church into all truth through the word of God.

The more "liberal" you become, the less you view all the world as evil. We tend to view the government system as corrupted and evil and we long for Christ rule to come to earth, but we tend to view, (at least I do) the attitude of worldliness as something coming out from within. The "things of the world" homes, food, clothing, music, pastimes, as neutral things that can be made evil or good by the heart attitude of worldliness.
I'm not saying this is correct or best, but it is a paradigm in contrast to a radical Anabaptist view of salvation.
In my Evangelical experience, this was not the case. Salvation was viewed as very much a 'being saved from sinning' belief. I think this again is using the term revivalist/evangelical too broadly. We have been saved from past sins; we are being saved through the enabling power of the Spirit over current sins; we will be saved from eternal damnation when we die. This is what I was taught in both Evangelical Pentecostal and Evangelical Baptist churches.
I'm not denying what you are saying. But look at it from the Anabaptist perspective. Often the revivalist approach led to people leaving the church for one where women could cut their hair and drop the head covering (both actions considered sin by conservative Anabaptists), and where divorced and remarried men and women could be church members (also considered sin). Women could wear slacks and pant suits, mixed swimming was acceptable, and so was social drinking (a glass of wine at suppertime, etc.). Some of this varies, and some of it has come about in the last fifty years, I realize.

You see, conservative Anabaptists define sin and worldliness a lot differently than most of today's evangelicals do. So a neighboring evangelical congregation might well use the same terminology to define salvation, but in practical life, it is still different.

We've sort of reached a tacit understanding on MennoDiscuss and MennoNet about some of this. But there some people posting regularly that a number of us would not be able to conscientiously allow into our churches as members without major changes. We don't often say that, and maybe should, oftener, because I think some of you forget that at times. So just because something seems obvious according to the understanding of some, and we finally quit debating with you about it, doesn't mean that we agree with what you say.
Last edited by lesterb on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by lesterb »

Bootstrap wrote:
cmbl wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Fascinating.

As someone who has been Mennonite most of my adult life, I heard it from evangelicals.
That fascinates me as well. To expand a bit on my experience, I definitely would have heard things about the present or the future, e.g., if you've really been saved, you will do this or not do that, but treating salvation itself as something in a present-continuing or future tense seemed a new idea to me. (Other people, of course, may have different experiences).
It's a great teaching. Wherever we each heard it ;->
I like C.S. Lewis's comparison of life being like an apprenticeship.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Neto »

lesterb wrote:Often the revivalist approach led to people leaving the church for one where ... social drinking (a glass of wine at suppertime, etc.) [was acceptable]. Some of this varies, and some of it has come about in the last fifty years, I realize. ....
I have more or less acknowledged that the MB 'world' that I came from was in many ways basically 'Evangelical'. But I had never been around Mennonites who approved of alcoholic beverages (and cooking with wine, etc) until I came into the Beachy AM setting here in Ohio, No alcohol was ever to be found in the homes of any MB people I knew growing up. (I don't know about now, as I've been away from it for so long, but still certainly not my parents or immediate family.) Many of the Amish here in Holmes County make their own wines - is that uncommon in other places?

We were also not permitted to play any kind of cards, including Dutch Blitz and even Old Maid. All cards were forbidden, at least in our home. I have heard more cuss words from BAM & Amish men than I ever heard from any MBs, too. I'm not slamming anyone, just saying that an emphasis on holy living is not entirely unknown in Evangelical-leaning Mennonite congregations. (I can't believe that here I am defending Evangelicals.... :o :shock: )
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:Neto, I think a number of us can relate to your church experience even in quite conservative Mennonite settings. But because it is a hybrid of sorts it leaves some of us who somehow need a logical trail to follow, confused.

The other thing that Nolt didn't point out, and I think is fairly significant here too is; what does salvation mean to the historical Amish?
I think here too is a big difference between the evangelical and Anabaptist understanding. Salvation to the revivalist/evangelical is saving from eternal damnation. That is part of it for the historical Anabaptist, but more concretely and tangibly salvation is being saved from the evil world. This dualism is quite strong in Anabaptism. There is only two ways, the kingdom of darkness, or the kingdom of light, the broad way or the narrow way.
So salvation means that everything has been corrupted by humanity and depending how you live means you will be saved from it and will receive the crown of life eternal if you have been faithful. This salvation has been granted through the blood of Jesus on the cross and is a gift of God's grace. The Holy Sprirt guides the individual with the church into all truth through the word of God.

The more "liberal" you become, the less you view all the world as evil. We tend to view the government system as corrupted and evil and we long for Christ rule to come to earth, but we tend to view, (at least I do) the attitude of worldliness as something coming out from within. The "things of the world" homes, food, clothing, music, pastimes, as neutral things that can be made evil or good by the heart attitude of worldliness.
I'm not saying this is correct or best, but it is a paradigm in contrast to a radical Anabaptist view of salvation.
In my Evangelical experience, this was not the case. Salvation was viewed as very much a 'being saved from sinning' belief. I think this again is using the term revivalist/evangelical too broadly. We have been saved from past sins; we are being saved through the enabling power of the Spirit over current sins; we will be saved from eternal damnation when we die. This is what I was taught in both Evangelical Pentecostal and Evangelical Baptist churches.
I'm not denying what you are saying. But look at it from the Anabaptist perspective. Often the revivalist approach led to people leaving the church for one where women could cut their hair and drop the head covering (both actions considered sin by conservative Anabaptists), and where divorced and remarried men and women could be church members (also considered sin). Women could wear slacks and pant suits, mixed swimming was acceptable, and so was social drinking (a glass of wine at suppertime, etc.). Some of this varies, and some of it has come about in the last fifty years, I realize.

You see, conservative Anabaptists define sin and worldliness a lot differently than most of today's evangelicals do. So a neighboring evangelical congregation might well use the same terminology to define salvation, but in practical life, it is still different.

We've sort of reached a tacit understanding on MennoDiscuss and MennoNet about some of this. But there some people posting regularly that a number of us would not be able to conscientiously allow into our churches as members without major changes. We don't often say that, and maybe should, oftener, because I think some of you forget that at times. So just because something seems obvious according to the understanding of some, and we finally quit debating with you about it, doesn't mean that we agree with what you say.
In both Evangelicals and Anabaptist circles there are conservative and liberal groups. I go to an Anabaptist MB church where those changes that you mentioned in what I underlined above are what describes our Anabaptist church. Compared to a CA we are very worldly yet we are not as worldly as another Mennonite church in our city. They think we are CAs.

I agree Lester, we have gone through some big changes in the past 50 years in what once was conservatove Evangelical or conservative Anabaptist groups. And probably there are more CAs that kept to the older ways of holiness than the CEs (Conservative Evangelicals). To some extent I think for the CEs it is due to engaging the world in evangelism and allowing the flesh to be influenced by who they deal with. And also I think some Evangelicals got into a numbers game and the message of the Gospel and sactification got very watered down.

Also I realize I would not qualify to be a member of a CA church although I still qualify to be a member of our MB Anabaptist church. So my posts are going to be more from a different Anabaptist perspective. I hope what I post is not offensive but where and when it is seen this way, anyone, please send me a PM.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
lesterb wrote:Often the revivalist approach led to people leaving the church for one where ... social drinking (a glass of wine at suppertime, etc.) [was acceptable]. Some of this varies, and some of it has come about in the last fifty years, I realize. ....
I have more or less acknowledged that the MB 'world' that I came from was in many ways basically 'Evangelical'. But I had never been around Mennonites who approved of alcoholic beverages (and cooking with wine, etc) until I came into the Beachy AM setting here in Ohio, No alcohol was ever to be found in the homes of any MB people I knew growing up. (I don't know about now, as I've been away from it for so long, but still certainly not my parents or immediate family.) Many of the Amish here in Holmes County make their own wines - is that uncommon in other places?

We were also not permitted to play any kind of cards, including Dutch Blitz and even Old Maid. All cards were forbidden, at least in our home. I have heard more cuss words from BAM & Amish men than I ever heard from any MBs, too. I'm not slamming anyone, just saying that an emphasis on holy living is not entirely unknown in Evangelical-leaning Mennonite congregations. (I can't believe that here I am defending Evangelicals.... :o :shock: )
The card thing brings back memories. As a Pentecostal, we, too, could not play with cards. We also couldn't throw dice, say for a game of clue or monopoly. Instead we had these little spinners to tell us how many moves we were to make. Then the card thing changed to allow a game called 'Rook' and for those who knew the game of euchre, they laughed and called it Pentecostal euchre. I remember some pretty competetive games of Rook. We still were not allowed to gamble.

And yes, the alcohol thing was also a taboo by Pentecostals and Mennonite Brethren in our area, as well as Salvation Army soldiers. Today I know some MBs drink alcohol and United Mennonites that drink and make their own wine. I help collect funds at the Salvation Army kettles at the Liquor store and see MBs and other Mennonites frequent that store. Also a number of Mennonite ladies who wear long traditional style dresses frequent that store and the Beer store. The current view is that alcohol is not prohibited in scripture but drunkedness is so drink in moderation. Well, some of my Mennonite friends are not very moderate in this area.

Neto, it must sound like I'm defending Evangelicals too but I don't mean to. Many I know are very attached to this world and live very extravagant lives seeking all kinds of entertainments of the world. A CA would see my life that way also in various areas. I have a long way to go to become more like Jesus. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Or should I say my mind needs further renewing to chose each moment what an ambassador of God's Kingdom should be.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by ken_sylvania »

Bootstrap wrote:
cmbl wrote:As someone who was raised evangelical, the first time I heard "We have been saved...we are being saved...we will be saved" was listening to John D. Martin.
Fascinating.

As someone who has been Mennonite most of my adult life, I heard it from evangelicals.
If I'm not mistaken, that would have been Daniel Kauffman's view as well. I think you'd find it in "Doctrines of the Bible." At any rate, I distinctly remember the three part view of salvation (past, present, future) being taught in instruction class.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Bootstrap »

ken_sylvania wrote:If I'm not mistaken, that would have been Daniel Kauffman's view as well. I think you'd find it in "Doctrines of the Bible." At any rate, I distinctly remember the three part view of salvation (past, present, future) being taught in instruction class.
I did a quick Google sniff test, and found this teaching on websites associated with a wide variety of denominations - perhaps because Scripture so clearly talks about salvation in each of these ways:

For instance:
Here are some verses that do indicate that salvation occurs in our past:
Romans 8:22-24: We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:4-8: But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.
But then here are some verses that indicate that salvation is happening now:
2 Corinthians 2:15: For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,

Phillipians 2:12: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

1 Peter 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
And here are some verses which indicate that salvation occurs in the future:
Romans 5:9-10: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15: Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matthew 24:13: But he who endures to the end will be saved.
That's not from an Evangelical or an Anabaptist site, incidentally. It's from a Catholic site. So I'm not sure this teaching is exclusive to us. But it's a great teaching.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Josh »

I feel this is a teaching that nearly all Christians would agree on, but one that tends not to be emphasised in some circles. Particularly, a revivalist influence shifts a lot of focus to an initial crisis conversion experience.

Revivalism is a 19th century invention, and one that really no Christian denominations anywhere agreed on. The modern day tendency to over-focus on the initial crisis conversion and not the sanctification of the rest of one's life is a consequence of that influence, and one that Mennonites have not at all been immune from.

My perspective is that, long term, a past, present, future, and eternal balance of focus when it comes to salvation will be restored to pretty much any Christian group; I already see this happening in groups like Apostolic Pentecostals whose formation centred entirely around the crisis conversion experience. The restoration to a more balanced focus is not just a sign of a restorationist impulse to return to viewpoints of Wesleyan entire sanctification; I would venture the average Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal pastor I know barely even knows what that is. They just have a simplicity of view that when they see Christ working in a new believer, some things change right away, other things change over a period of time, and some things seem to be a lifelong struggle. Our hope is in Jesus' promise to save us from all sin and to save us in the life to come.
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