Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14442
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:So my posts are going to be more from a different Anabaptist perspective.
Contemporary Anabaptist perspective perhaps but not historic.
I suspect none of the historic Anabaptists / Mennonites are posting here, since they died long ago. And I'm not always convinced that we contemporaries are particularly accurate when we try to reconstruct history. We often reconstruct histories that reinforce our current beliefs.

If we want to discuss earlier Anabaptists / Mennonites, I think we really need to examine their individual writings carefully together. Otherwise, we run a real risk of doing social construction instead of real history. Menno Simons and Jakob Hutter, for instance, were quite different people, and perhaps neither would recognize their contemporary spiritual descendants.

To me, careful study of original sources is useful. Exchanging opinions about how we, as contemporaries, live out our lives is useful. But broad generalizations about "historical Anabaptism" always come down to the authority of the speaker. There's Ernie's historical Anabaptism, Wenger's historical Anabaptism, Ziegler's historical Anabaptism, etc. Each of these has a basis in the writings of some historical Anabaptists, but also a lot of later influences. We do the same thing when we look at the early Church.

And isn't that why Menno Simons kept insisting that we return to Scripture instead of putting our faith in these other things?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by MaxPC »

One of the characteristics I appreciate about authentic Anabaptists is that in this discussion and in others they speak for themselves; they don't try to interpret others' posts for the rest of the forum; and if they want a clarification, they go directly to the poster and ask.

I'm learning a great deal about the Anabaptist vision and theology in this thread. It's an excellent discussion of identity and distinctives.
Dan Z wrote:So many good topics - so little time. :)

Here are three proposed differences to get the ball rolling:
  • 1) To paraphrase Harold Bender - The great word of the Reformers was "Faith" - the great word for the Anabaptists was "Following". "First and fundamental in the Anabaptist vision was the conception of the essence of Christianity as discipleship" where fundamentalists would articulate the essence of Christianity as belief.

    2) Fundamentalists focus primarily on orthodoxy (right beliefs) as proof of the regenerated life
    Anabaptists focus primarily on orthopraxy (right practice) as proof of the regenerated life

    3) Fundamentalists are Bibliocentric (centered on the Bible - the word of God)
    Anabaptists are Christocentric (centered of Christ - the Word of God)
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14442
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:One of the characteristics I appreciate about authentic Anabaptists is that in this discussion and in others they speak for themselves; they don't try to interpret others' posts for the rest of the forum; and if they want a clarification, they go directly to the poster and ask.
As a Catholic, Max, I wonder why you choose to take sides on threads like these, while suggesting that this is only for Anabaptists. You should be aware, by now, that plain Mennos are not the only people who consider themselves Anabaptist, and that there are common strains in Anabaptist / Mennonite thought.

We can referee ourselves. We don't need your help. I don't think anyone is asking a Catholic to tell us who the true Anabaptists and Mennonites are.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Neto
Posts: 4578
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Neto »

On Thursday 03-23-2017 7:02 PM
Josh wrote:…. I would welcome someone to point me to any minister or bishop who is teaching that salvation is earned thru church rules, that there is no need to repent and be baptised, that grace doesn't exist.
You have visited our congregation before, if I recall correctly, so you’ll know more or less where it falls on the conservatism scale. But there are men in our congregation that believe that while salvation is received by grace, it is kept by works. This is the type of view I hear expressed by Amish men as well, although not so point-blank in-your-face as that.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote: You have visited our congregation before, if I recall correctly, so you’ll know more or less where it falls on the conservatism scale. But there are men in our congregation that believe that while salvation is received by grace, it is kept by works. This is the type of view I hear expressed by Amish men as well, although not so point-blank in-your-face as that.
:up:
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Wayne in Maine
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:52 am
Location: Slightly above sea level, in the dear old State of Maine
Affiliation: Yielded

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Valerie wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
lesterb wrote: Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
Thank you for saying this so well.

I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
Admittedly I have a hard time with these statements- my experience in Churches (which would be Evangelical/Pentecostal) for decades has not resembled these viewpoints. There of course, is a mix of Christians in the congregations that are at various places in their maturing in Christ. By & large though, it's been an awesome experience to witness many Christians in the faith groups we have been in that serve the Lord & their neighbor out of love for Him, and love for them. We've witnessed & been a part of ministries where we've been able to see love in action, faith in action, and concern for the lost and for fellow Christians and I never had the impression it was out of fear of hell. Now I do believe the Lord & His Prophets & Apostles did preach 'fear' of eternal damnation- and Jude reminds us:
Jude 1:22,23
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

When you think about it- you have to have faith to even believe there is eternal damnation- some people don't even believe in heaven or hell-

I am not sure but it seems a broad brush is being used here, and maybe there is more truth in it by and large, I suppose we just have had the blessing of being in congregations where we witnessed much service & love for the Lord & others-
at the same time recognizing the difference in it seems Anabaptists don't place the emphasis on the Cross & Resurrection as part of the Gospel they share- and Evangelicals do emphasize the Cross (I think they got that from the Apostles teaching as they took the faith to the world).
I still stand by my statement. Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism emphasize soteriology, Anabaptism emphasizes Nachfolge Jesu.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5856
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Sudsy »

Wayne in Maine wrote: I still stand by my statement. Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism emphasize soteriology, Anabaptism emphasizes Nachfolge Jesu.
And in English this means ? An unknown tongue requires an interpreter. :?
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5221
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: I still stand by my statement. Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism emphasize soteriology, Anabaptism emphasizes Nachfolge Jesu.
And in English this means ? An unknown tongue requires an interpreter. :?
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50&p=1080#p1080
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=427&p=10501#p10501
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=426&p=11064#p11064
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Josh »

Neto wrote:On Thursday 03-23-2017 7:02 PM
Josh wrote:…. I would welcome someone to point me to any minister or bishop who is teaching that salvation is earned thru church rules, that there is no need to repent and be baptised, that grace doesn't exist.
You have visited our congregation before, if I recall correctly, so you’ll know more or less where it falls on the conservatism scale. But there are men in our congregation that believe that while salvation is received by grace, it is kept by works. This is the type of view I hear expressed by Amish men as well, although not so point-blank in-your-face as that.
Isn't this normal Christian belief? Outside of those who embrace eternal security, don't we believe we need to continue to seek and follow Jesus, and if we reject him (which means we stop following / obeying him), we won't be in his kingdom anymore?

BTW I have not visited your congregation, I have gone to some organised sporting events / fundraisers tho and interacted with folks from your congregation there. Most recently I went to the missions banquet held across the street from Homestead Furniture.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4578
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote:
Neto wrote:On Thursday 03-23-2017 7:02 PM
Josh wrote:…. I would welcome someone to point me to any minister or bishop who is teaching that salvation is earned thru church rules, that there is no need to repent and be baptised, that grace doesn't exist.
You have visited our congregation before, if I recall correctly, so you’ll know more or less where it falls on the conservatism scale. But there are men in our congregation that believe that while salvation is received by grace, it is kept by works. This is the type of view I hear expressed by Amish men as well, although not so point-blank in-your-face as that.
Isn't this normal Christian belief? Outside of those who embrace eternal security, don't we believe we need to continue to seek and follow Jesus, and if we reject him (which means we stop following / obeying him), we won't be in his kingdom anymore?

BTW I have not visited your congregation, I have gone to some organised sporting events / fundraisers tho and interacted with folks from your congregation there. Most recently I went to the missions banquet held across the street from Homestead Furniture.
The way you stated it, yes, I believe that is correct. But there is a subtle difference, because you are not saying that you EARN the keeping of your salvation by your works. At least when I use pretty much the same words, I still believe that our salvation is still totally due to God's graciousness, and that my necessary response is continual acceptance of his free gift, demonstrated by a life of obedience, but in no way am I myself preserving my salvation, or "keeping" it. God does all of that. All I must do is allow God's power to work in me, and he enables me to do that.
In the OT text which says "The righteous lives by his faith" there are a couple of textual questions or possible variations. It is textually possible that the 3rd singular masculine pronoun refers to God, and that the word translated as 'faith' there means 'faithfulness', so that it means "The righteous lives by His (Yahweh's) faithfulness."
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Post Reply