Neto wrote:Sudsy wrote:From the majority of Anabaptists I know, they would not be in tune with the side of Evangelicalism that teach the TULIP theology.
Most Anabaptists I know would say that, although we are depraved from the fall we still have the ability to chose God's gift of salvation or reject it. That God draws us to Himself but He does not cause us to chose Him by first changing our hearts in such a way that we could ever reject Him. Upon this choice to chose God, we are born again. If we hang onto our belief in Christ and never apostasize, in the end, we will be saved. Some might say we also must live out some degree of obedience to stay saved but I have yet to hear when this obedience is enough so assurance of salvation is pretty ify.
Those evangelicals that follow the TULIP theology might put it this way - First we are so depraved from the fall, none of us would ever chose God by our own chosing. Our sinning deserves hell but God has predetermined to save some of us from this hell. So TULIP theology emphasizes God's soverignity and believes God has chosen, before the world existed, to save certain people while others not. Salvation is considered all of God in the sense that God choses/predetermines/elects certain individuals from among us and He changes their hearts, at some point in time, to chose Him back. Our new hearts could never resist His grace. Jesus really paid the penalty of sin for these He chose to save. Since salvation is all a work of God, God will save everyone who makes this choice from the new heart He gave them to chose Him. They are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation.
Putting it in these terms, I have only met one Anabaptist so far who agree that is how and who God saves. But I am told there are more Anabaptists who believe the same or something very close to that. I just haven't run across them. My guess is that the majority of Anabaptists on this forum do not believe in the Evangelical TULIP theology.
It seems to me that anabaptism is pretty well diametrically opposed to TULIP. If I'm correct, then the only way a Mennonite could be a Calvinist is if they are not a good either of them. I do, however agree with some of what they say, I just don't come to the same conclusions, and they would probably say I am just playing with words to say I agree with any of it, playing with THEIR words.
Total Depravity
Are we totally depraved, unable in and of ourselves to take any step toward God? I would say so. It is only because God is so gracious that he sent his Son (who willingly came) to die for us that we ever have an opportunity to believe. By one man sin entered into the world, and all men are condemned. But by one man all are saved. I believe that because God is gracious, no one is condemned for inherited sin (‘original sin”). Jesus, by his death & resurrection took away that sin. For everyone, whether they have even heard his Name, the only Name through whom anyone can be saved or not. So our own sin determines our destiny.
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
These two I do not agree with in the slightest. In the two times recorded when Jesus multiplied fish & bread, why did Jesus make more bread & fish than the people could eat? I believe that the meaning behind it is that God is so gracious that there is always more than enough. Jesus’ death & resurrection made the way for every person ever born to be saved, and then some.
Irresistible Grace
If God is perfect, then his grace is perfect too, because it is his character. So yes, God’s Grace MUST be irresistible. But he wants willing followers, so he allows us to resist the irresistible. If a person could force someone to love them, would it be love?
Perseverance of the Saints
Here I make something different of this. They think that any real saint will persevere, and if they don’t, they were never a saint. As I understand the Scripture, it is essential that the believer persevere, or he or she will not be saved in the end. But it is not the persevering that saves us. I know it sounds like it, but it isn’t.
But not all Evangelicals are Calvinists, either, at least I would consider the FreeWill Baptists I knew years ago to be Evangelicals. So I don’t know how helpful all this is.