That is the Orthodox saying as well-cmbl wrote:As someone who was raised evangelical, the first time I heard "We have been saved...we are being saved...we will be saved" was listening to John D. Martin.
Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
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- Wayne in Maine
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
Thank you for saying this so well.lesterb wrote: Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
In an earlier post someone mentioned the concept of "Gelassenheit". I think that is a term that our brand of plain Menno has tried to define and implement. My conclusion is that if we practice the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, and particularly the Beattitudes, as well as Isaiah 53, we have learned Gelassenheit.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
C.S. Lewis said this - We can resolve this tension between believing for nothing and believing for reward by realizing self-interest is not the same thing as selfishness.Wayne in Maine wrote: I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
In this text isn't Jesus appealing to self-interest as a motive for self-denial when He said - “For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?” Isn't Jesus encouraging us to truly “save” our lives and not “lose” our lives or “forfeit” our soul. Imo, He appeals to our self-interest.
An article further explaining the difference in self-interest vs: selfishness - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... f-interest
It wraps up with this - It's important to remember that God's interest is in our self-interest. It's in our self-interest to deny ourselves. Selfishness is choosing our own lives, but if we pursue our self-interest we choose true life in Christ.
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Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
I think that's an important difference between cheap-grace, shallow Christianity and true discipleship. And I think that's something many Mennonites have done well.Wayne in Maine wrote:I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
I've certainly seen many Evangelicals and other kinds of Christians who got that right. And I've seen Mennonites who did not live accordingly. I could make a long list of non-Mennonite authors and preachers who focus on getting this right.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
Sudsy wrote:C.S. Lewis said this - We can resolve this tension between believing for nothing and believing for reward by realizing self-interest is not the same thing as selfishness.Wayne in Maine wrote: I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
In this text isn't Jesus appealing to self-interest as a motive for self-denial when He said - “For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?” Isn't Jesus encouraging us to truly “save” our lives and not “lose” our lives or “forfeit” our soul. Imo, He appeals to our self-interest.
An article further explaining the difference in self-interest vs: selfishness - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... f-interest
It wraps up with this - It's important to remember that God's interest is in our self-interest. It's in our self-interest to deny ourselves. Selfishness is choosing our own lives, but if we pursue our self-interest we choose true life in Christ.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
For instance, I think Max was implying that some Catholics get this right too:Bootstrap wrote:I think that's an important difference between cheap-grace, shallow Christianity and true discipleship. And I think that's something many Mennonites have done well.
I've certainly seen many Evangelicals and other kinds of Christians who got that right. And I've seen Mennonites who did not live accordingly. I could make a long list of non-Mennonite authors and preachers who focus on getting this right.
MaxPC wrote:Sudsy wrote:It wraps up with this - It's important to remember that God's interest is in our self-interest. It's in our self-interest to deny ourselves. Selfishness is choosing our own lives, but if we pursue our self-interest we choose true life in Christ.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
Contemporary Anabaptist perspective perhaps but not historic.Sudsy wrote:So my posts are going to be more from a different Anabaptist perspective.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
Admittedly I have a hard time with these statements- my experience in Churches (which would be Evangelical/Pentecostal) for decades has not resembled these viewpoints. There of course, is a mix of Christians in the congregations that are at various places in their maturing in Christ. By & large though, it's been an awesome experience to witness many Christians in the faith groups we have been in that serve the Lord & their neighbor out of love for Him, and love for them. We've witnessed & been a part of ministries where we've been able to see love in action, faith in action, and concern for the lost and for fellow Christians and I never had the impression it was out of fear of hell. Now I do believe the Lord & His Prophets & Apostles did preach 'fear' of eternal damnation- and Jude reminds us:Wayne in Maine wrote:Thank you for saying this so well.lesterb wrote: Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
Jude 1:22,23
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
When you think about it- you have to have faith to even believe there is eternal damnation- some people don't even believe in heaven or hell-
I am not sure but it seems a broad brush is being used here, and maybe there is more truth in it by and large, I suppose we just have had the blessing of being in congregations where we witnessed much service & love for the Lord & others-
at the same time recognizing the difference in it seems Anabaptists don't place the emphasis on the Cross & Resurrection as part of the Gospel they share- and Evangelicals do emphasize the Cross (I think they got that from the Apostles teaching as they took the faith to the world).
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
Amen. You see it, and God sees it.Bootstrap wrote:I think that's an important difference between cheap-grace, shallow Christianity and true discipleship. And I think that's something many Mennonites have done well.Wayne in Maine wrote:I see the biggest distinction being the concern for one's eternal live (Matthew 19:16-30- an expression of self-love) vs. the desire to obey God and express love to one's neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 - an expression of selflessness) which Jesus referred to: "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." (Matt 16:25)
I've certainly seen many Evangelicals and other kinds of Christians who got that right. And I've seen Mennonites who did not live accordingly. I could make a long list of non-Mennonite authors and preachers who focus on getting this right.
Sometimes this passage comes to mind in these types of threads:
2 Corinthians 10:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
I don't know how the Lord views all this- sometimes I think He may see a place for it but perhaps sometimes grieved by it, but I am not sure.
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