Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Bootstrap
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I feel this is a teaching that nearly all Christians would agree on, but one that tends not to be emphasised in some circles. Particularly, a revivalist influence shifts a lot of focus to an initial crisis conversion experience.
Yes, I agree.

And I think there's a certain tendency for us to think that every great Christian insight we encounter in our tradition belongs to our tradition if it was new to us when we first heard it. I'm pretty sure I first heard this one in a sermon by Tom Stark at University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Michigan - as Calvinist as they come.

If I were to try to identify the most important philosophical and theological differences between Anabaptists and Evangelicals, I suspect I would focus on:

1. Church and State
2. Systematic Theology - this is important to most people who call themselves fundamentalists or Evangelicals, but most Mennonites / Anabaptists are suspicious of systematic theology
3. Appeals to history - we often appeal to Anabaptist / Mennonite historical figures, they often appeal to Luther or Calvin or Wesley, depending on which tradition

There are a lot of other differences that are about how we live out our faith, and others that are largely cultural. But are there other philosophical / theological differences that distinguish us as much as these?
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by lesterb »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:I feel this is a teaching that nearly all Christians would agree on, but one that tends not to be emphasised in some circles. Particularly, a revivalist influence shifts a lot of focus to an initial crisis conversion experience.
Yes, I agree.

And I think there's a certain tendency for us to think that every great Christian insight we encounter in our tradition belongs to our tradition if it was new to us when we first heard it. I'm pretty sure I first heard this one in a sermon by Tom Stark at University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Michigan - as Calvinist as they come.

If I were to try to identify the most important philosophical and theological differences between Anabaptists and Evangelicals, I suspect I would focus on:

1. Church and State
2. Systematic Theology - this is important to most people who call themselves fundamentalists or Evangelicals, but most Mennonites / Anabaptists are suspicious of systematic theology
3. Appeals to history - we often appeal to Anabaptist / Mennonite historical figures, they often appeal to Luther or Calvin or Wesley, depending on which tradition

There are a lot of other differences that are about how we live out our faith, and others that are largely cultural. But are there other philosophical / theological differences that distinguish us as much as these?
I like this summary. I think the other difference I would add, from a philosophical basis I think, would be community / brotherhood. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals would consider themselves to have the final word. Anabaptists would trust the community further than themselves.

Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
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Sudsy
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

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lesterb wrote: Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
Then would a key focus for Fundamentalist / Evangelical be [bible]Acts 2,38[/bible]

Whereas a key focus for Anabaptists be [bible]2 Timothy 2,4[/bible]
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by lesterb »

Sudsy wrote:
lesterb wrote: Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
Then would a key focus for Fundamentalist / Evangelical be [bible]Acts 2,38[/bible]

Whereas a key focus for Anabaptists be [bible]2 Timothy 2,4[/bible]
That is how I would see it, yes. Unfortunately, the F / E focus, at least as used in some revivalist circles, leaves out the last phrase or too and replaces it/them with a focus on getting heaven. So it appeals to the selfish nature of man, rather than on the basis of what Jesus has done for you.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:If I were to try to identify the most important philosophical and theological differences between Anabaptists and Evangelicals, I suspect I would focus on:

1. Church and State
2. Systematic Theology - this is important to most people who call themselves fundamentalists or Evangelicals, but most Mennonites / Anabaptists are suspicious of systematic theology
3. Appeals to history - we often appeal to Anabaptist / Mennonite historical figures, they often appeal to Luther or Calvin or Wesley, depending on which tradition

There are a lot of other differences that are about how we live out our faith, and others that are largely cultural. But are there other philosophical / theological differences that distinguish us as much as these?
I like this summary. I think the other difference I would add, from a philosophical basis I think, would be community / brotherhood. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals would consider themselves to have the final word. Anabaptists would trust the community further than themselves.
Yes, I think that's good. But I think there's a whole spectrum of what that means. For many non-plain Mennos, community and brotherhood are essential, and individual leadings are discerned in the community, but we do not have the same teaching on Gelassenheit - if we use the word, we probably mean something different than our plain cousins do.
lesterb wrote:Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
I see that as a lot more Fundamentalist than Evangelical. Christianity Today, for instance, is a solidly Evangelical publication. John Piper is also solidly Evangelical.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote: That is how I would see it, yes. Unfortunately, the F / E focus, at least as used in some revivalist circles, leaves out the last phrase or too and replaces it/them with a focus on getting heaven. So it appeals to the selfish nature of man, rather than on the basis of what Jesus has done for you.
Not sure I understand. Are not escaping hell; receiving eternal life and receiving the Holy Spirit gifts from God that comes through repenting and belief ? Are these gifts to be rejected because they appeal to our nature to be self concerned ? In Acts 2, these people listening to Peter sounded very self concerned - 'What must we do to be saved' ? Sounds selfish but it was the Holy Spirit working conviction of sin in their hearts.

To me, one of today's problems is what repent means regarding sin. And also, not knowing what comes with these gifts. I would think it was quite obvious by the Acts 2 crowd that receiving salvation included what they were seeing in the abuse of Jesus followers. They could easily 'count the cost'. Especially the abuse by the religious leaders of that day. They could also see obvious changes in those who were Christ followers who were leaving all. Today, there is little to no obvious persecution to any degree in North America. The changes of heart by many who 'repent and believe' is not very obvious. 'Say this little prayer and we believe you have been born again'. And so I think these gifts get presented by some as something you can just receive, perhaps get emotional at receiving time, and there is little expectation on how it changes your life.

On the other hand, some folk can be keen on following a different way of life or sticking to a certain way of living and that too could be out of self concerns. I have heard stories of those raised in very conservative churches and followed all the guidelines and expectations and later realized they had not received salvation as a gift. They had been working to merit salvation. This, too, can be a problem.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:
lesterb wrote: Also, I see the Fundamentalist / Evangelical focus being more on what can I do to be saved and assured of eternal life. Hence the focus on revivalism and hell fire preaching, etc. The Anabaptist focus isn't so much on self and more on Christ -- How can I please Him? I know that a few people here will disagree with that, and it may not be true across the board. But in general terms, I think it is a basic difference.
Then would a key focus for Fundamentalist / Evangelical be [bible]Acts 2,38[/bible]
This is a key focus for Anabaptists as well. That's why we became "rebaptisers" at all: we started preaching to repent and be baptised.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

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Sudsy wrote:On the other hand, some folk can be keen on following a different way of life or sticking to a certain way of living and that too could be out of self concerns. I have heard stories of those raised in very conservative churches and followed all the guidelines and expectations and later realized they had not received salvation as a gift. They had been working to merit salvation. This, too, can be a problem.
Frankly, I don't really believe these stories anymore. Every time I am in a very conservative or Old Order setting, I hear strong gospel appeals, sermons on how salvation isn't earned, etc. It's just an easy way to package up a sob story about how the group you left is full of people who are "unsaved" and "not born again" and "don't want to hear the gospel".

Whenever I actually meet/talk to the alleged offenders, I find out there's a lot more going on. Maybe it was true in the past? Definitely not true in 2017. I would welcome someone to point me to any minister or bishop who is teaching that salvation is earned thru church rules, that there is no need to repent and be baptised, that grace doesn't exist.
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:On the other hand, some folk can be keen on following a different way of life or sticking to a certain way of living and that too could be out of self concerns. I have heard stories of those raised in very conservative churches and followed all the guidelines and expectations and later realized they had not received salvation as a gift. They had been working to merit salvation. This, too, can be a problem.
Frankly, I don't really believe these stories anymore. Every time I am in a very conservative or Old Order setting, I hear strong gospel appeals, sermons on how salvation isn't earned, etc. It's just an easy way to package up a sob story about how the group you left is full of people who are "unsaved" and "not born again" and "don't want to hear the gospel".

Whenever I actually meet/talk to the alleged offenders, I find out there's a lot more going on. Maybe it was true in the past? Definitely not true in 2017. I would welcome someone to point me to any minister or bishop who is teaching that salvation is earned thru church rules, that there is no need to repent and be baptised, that grace doesn't exist.
I am not familiar with any who teach salvation is earned, however I believe it possible that believe, repent and be baptised can be preached and some do not have ears to hear. It can be like reading a text of scripture many times and then there comes a time when the truth of the text jumps off the page. In our MB church we have a number who came from a mainline United church where they were very active members and claim to have not heard the believe, repent and be baptised. Well, perhaps it was preached but they didn't have ears to hear. The message they say they did hear was get baptised and join the church (works salvation).

One Mennonite lady I know said she had been raised MB and joined the church through water baptism but it was quite later on she was born again. She said her stated belief at water baptism was just a head belief and once she trully believed and repented she wanted to be re-baptised. So the church accommodated that and her brother baptised her. I know this conflicts with what I hear the early church fathers believe about born again happening at water baptism.

Well, I guess I'm wandering off topic again. :oops:
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Re: Philosophical and Theological differences between Anabaptism and Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

Post by Josh »

Sudsy, everything you said makes sense to me.

I'm not nearly as interested in what early church fathers said as what the Bible says. (And after all the New Testament is what those exact guys thought was authoritative for us.)

The Bible message of repentance, baptism, and salvation is simple.
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