The cape dress: Its origins and evolution over the ages

[Ken]

None whatsoever. But that is a LONG way from teaching young women that they must dress like some facsimile of 16th Century Flemish peasants to be a Good Christian. And that failing to do so distances oneself from the Lord or puts one outside of his protection.

I don't think anyone here has taken that position, so you're arguing against a strawman.

I'm not arguing against anyone here. I'm saying there are young women who do get that message all too commonly from some conservative religious groups in this country. And no doubt some are Anabaptist too.

[ohio jones]

I'm not arguing against anyone here.

But here you are, arguing anyway.

Let's get back to the origin and evolution (or creation, if you prefer) of the cape dress.

[Josh]

None whatsoever. But that is a LONG way from teaching young women that they must dress like some facsimile of 16th Century Flemish peasants to be a Good Christian. And that failing to do so distances oneself from the Lord or puts one outside of his protection.

I don't think anyone here has taken that position, so you're arguing against a strawman.

I'm not arguing against anyone here. I'm saying there are young women who do get that message all too commonly from some conservative religious groups in this country. And no doubt some are Anabaptist too.

That’s why people such as myself are anti-Gothard and generally against other non-Anabaptist “conservative” material that has nonbiblical teaching.

The fact there is invalid teaching doesn’t change at all that people shouldn’t be obscene and need to cover themselves.

[Grace]

I'm not arguing against anyone here.

But here you are, arguing anyway.

Let's get back to the origin and evolution (or creation, if you prefer) of the cape dress.

LOL.....I think origin and evolution of the cape dress has been covered many pages back.

The fact there is invalid teaching doesn’t change at all that people shouldn’t be obscene and need to cover themselves.

Thanks Josh. I agree.

Being obscene covers a lot of bases. From the provocative dresser to the very overweight woman with a very voluptuous behind, who thinks it is appropriate to wear tight leggings or slacks out in public.

[Josh]

I'm not arguing against anyone here.

But here you are, arguing anyway.

Let's get back to the origin and evolution (or creation, if you prefer) of the cape dress.

In the case of Holdemans, the cape dress was invented entirely in the mind of an academic who interviewed lots of women where my wife grew up. Despite none of them wearing cape dresses or even knowing how to sew any, she wrote a dissertation about how Holdemans wear cape dresses as part of an overall plan to subjugate women. (Bradley 1997)

[Sudsy]

I understand this text a bit differently. I don't see this as a list of what not to wear or how to be humble looking but rather as a list of examples of what women might wear to attract attention to themselves through outward adornments. The text does not go on to give a list of what women should wear in detail (it just says modest dress) but rather says the proper thing for a woman who is godly is to be known for her good works. To me, this text is more about what a Christian woman should be best known for. And because the 'but' and what follows is often ignored, I think, people get hung up on the examples given of what women should not wear. And then it gets carried away into wedding bands being wrong to wear or how expensive their clothes are, etc and the main point being made is missed. Be known for your good deeds not in the way you dress.

I think we actually agree. Although I think it is broader than just good deeds. Much of the New Testament is about what you should be on the inside rather than outside, and how you should treat others. And that it is better to live a humble life than a life of wealth. To be sure, part of that is doing good deeds, but it is broader than that. It is about being a good and humble person.

The reason why I believe 'good deeds' is so important in this text is because Jesus said we are to shine our lights in this world through good deeds, Matthew 5:16. Good deeds, not just to get the approval of people, but for the purpose of being lights in the world pointing people to the Saviour. There are various groups in the world that do good deeds and most often are respected for doing so but the good deeds that Christians are to engage in are a means of shining the light that we have inside us so the world can come out of darkness and into that light.

The main focus of the text, I believe, is saying to dress in a way that doesn't attract attention to yourself by what you adorn yourself with but rather be modest with your dress so the attention on one's life is on your good deeds that are what Jesus said is how we shine the light within. And these good deeds are to be done to those who need the Gospel and not just being nice to one another as Christians. And to do that we are to mingle with sinners, as Jesus did, to bring them to the Light.

If a woman dresses so different from the culture she lives in that she gets special attention by her outward appearance and not by her good deeds, then I think she has missed what scripture is saying. Looking so different often brings ridicule and some Christians may think that is the kind of persecution they should be getting but it, imo, seldom attracts others to the Saviour. Whereas it is harder to scorn those who are doing good deeds and it opens the door to sharing the Gospel.

And it is exactly the same for men and women. Nowhere in the New Testament do I find any mention of a special obligation that women have to go through there lives being careful not to tempt men and that they should hide who they are and shamefully hide their bodies because men might not be able to handle it. Likewise I see nothing in the New Testament that suggests men aren't entirely responsible for their own thoughts and actions. To the contrary. That is the consistent message. That as men you ARE responsible for your own thoughts and actions and shouldn't follow your crass whims and appetites sexual or otherwise.

I do think there are entirely appropriate standards of dress and comportment that vary to some extent from culture to culture and also over time. I just disagree with the message many young women get from some strains of conservative Christianity that they are sinning if they don't comport with some narrow dress code and are even placing themselves outside God's protection if they do so. Which yes, really does happen. I think more often than many here are willing to admit.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm not arguing against anyone here.

But here you are, arguing anyway.

Let's get back to the origin and evolution (or creation, if you prefer) of the cape dress.

In the case of Holdemans, the cape dress was invented entirely in the mind of an academic who interviewed lots of women where my wife grew up. Despite none of them wearing cape dresses or even knowing how to sew any, she wrote a dissertation about how Holdemans wear cape dresses as part of an overall plan to subjugate women. (Bradley 1997)

Oh, that must be a hoot to read. Do you know what journal it was in?

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm not arguing against anyone here.

But here you are, arguing anyway.

Let's get back to the origin and evolution (or creation, if you prefer) of the cape dress.

LOL.....I think origin and evolution of the cape dress has been covered many pages back.

The fact there is invalid teaching doesn’t change at all that people shouldn’t be obscene and need to cover themselves.

Thanks Josh. I agree.

Being obscene covers a lot of bases. From the provocative dresser to the very overweight woman with a very voluptuous behind, who thinks it is appropriate to wear tight leggings or slacks out in public.

My wife blesses the Lord that we do not wear (for both genders) such things. When she showed up for work in her jumper, she had a number of managers complement her on how "professional" it looks verses, well you know.

[Ernie]

Specifically, I would guess that in earlier times the 'cape' was always a completely separate piece,

Among many Mennonites, the cape is still a completely separate piece.

Well... If you've never seen Anabaptist ladies wearing a second cape (third layer) as a separate piece, you can see that here.


See 1:07:20

[Josh]

I've attended volleyball games with 4 layers. First an Under Armour "sport shirt" or similar goes overtop of the cape dress. Then a typical hoodie goes overtop of that.

Or 5 or 6, if one assumes the women involved were wearing underthings.

Put on a winter jacket and go outside, and now you're talking 7...