"his children are believers"

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Wade
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"his children are believers"

Post by Wade »

I realize that children are a huge responsibility entrusted from the Lord.

Taking a look at 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 in regards to a leaders children - was curious of the understanding or view typically taken here of these scriptures:

[bible]1 Timothy 3,4[/bible]
[bible]Titus 1,6[/bible]
It is interesting to note that in the ESV it is calling for the children of a leader to be believers... Even the KJV uses the word "faithful" which I would understand as meaning the same.

So does this mean the children of the leader that are at an age of accountability?
Is it confined to only children in their home or if one has left then does it not count even if they are still under 16 or 18 or 20 or 25?
What if through adverse circumstances they don't have opportunity to care for their children? And what if they did/do have lots of opportunity?
How can a newcomer understand what the scripture is saying here and how that may reflect our view on what may or may not be going on in a church we may be attending? How do those raised in the church understand it?
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Josh
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Re: "his children are believers"

Post by Josh »

I don't think the ESV translated well here. The NET's notes read:

Image

The ESV's translation does support a Reformed Calvinist viewpoint, as it often does. Yet another reason to avoid the ESV.
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Josh
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Re: "his children are believers"

Post by Josh »

I think the context is that his children show the results of being raised in a home with strong discipline and lots of love.

If we really believe in adult baptism, then a child's decision to follow the Lord isn't strongly influenced by being "raised right". But I am not convinced most of us will not eventually end up back in the Catholic or Reformed view, essentially believing their children are "born into" the faith and the key is making sure to raise them right.
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quietpilgrim
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Re: "his children are believers"

Post by quietpilgrim »

Wade,

To place your question in the broader context, I would suggest that the use of the Greek word "Presbuteros" was selected by the apostle Paul because of it's specific meaning. It is no mistake that it is translated as "elder" here and elsewhere. He could have chosen a more general word to describe the leaders in the early church, yet he chose a very specific word to convey the type of person that was to be selected to lead. I think it is part of the key to being able to answer the questions you are asking.

You might find this word study on biblehub insightful:

http://biblehub.com/greek/4245.htm

QP
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cmbl
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Re: "his children are believers"

Post by cmbl »

Josh wrote:I think the context is that his children show the results of being raised in a home with strong discipline and lots of love.

If we really believe in adult baptism, then a child's decision to follow the Lord isn't strongly influenced by being "raised right". But I am not convinced most of us will not eventually end up back in the Catholic or Reformed view, essentially believing their children are "born into" the faith and the key is making sure to raise them right.
Plenty of Mennonites believe in predestination. They just think that it happens in the first N years of a child's life, rather than before the foundation of the world. (N is often six years, though I've heard as low as three.)
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Soloist
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Re: "his children are believers"

Post by Soloist »

In regards to this then, at what point does someone become unsuited for leadership? Often the issues within a home are hidden until the children leave home. In regard to 1 Timothy 3:4, at what point is the child no longer supposed to be under control if we follow the logic that is not about believing or not but about being well managed? At 18? 19? marriage? I've known families that have several older daughters still under their father and managed well, also several families were the children bolted at 18 and went right to the world. Are both of these equally suited if they were "well" managed before bolting?
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lesterb
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Re: "his children are believers"

Post by lesterb »

I've been trying to think of how to address this subject, ever since it first showed up. It's a subject that can easily be abused or misunderstood.

In the conservative Mennonite Church, minister's families often get watched like a hawk. I know of several men with younger families who were ordained and became almost paranoid about this. To the point that I fear they are harming their children by their zeal to prove that they are living up to the biblical criteria for being ordained.

I have also seen younger men criticize older men about their families. I know of cases where older men were removed from the ministry because of their children. Interestingly, in at least one of these situations, the bishop in charge had children who weren't any better, but since they didn't live at home or attend their father's church, nobody paid attention to that. It seems that the focus is usually on children who live at home, or attend the minister's church.

I really don't know where to come out at on this. Normally the "attackers" are younger couples, who haven't had the experience of dealing with older children. Normally if you give such people 20 years to mature, they are much more understanding. But a LOT of damage can be done, and a lot of people hurt and embittered, but such attacks.

I guess you know by know where I come out at. All of our children are members in conservative Anabaptist churches, so it isn't that I'm trying to defend myself. But it does seem to me that such accusations don't consider that free will that children have. I don't take any credit for the way our children went in life, and the story isn't all told yet. I'm really not willing to discredit every parent who has a troubled son or daughter. I think we need to be supportive of such parents. They are suffering enough already, I suspect, without you or I turning our guns on them.

I'm not sure that I can totally explain those passages in Titus, etc. One thing I do think we can take from them is that we should avoid ordaining young men whose children aren't old enough that we can tell if their training program actually works or not. Give them a chance to get some experience. I'm a lot happier about someone in the 40 - 50 age bracket being ordained than someone in their 20's or even early thirties.

Got to get back to work.... :yawn:
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