Articles by Asher Witmer

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I think I now understand what you are saying. However, not sure if I am quite with you. Is it possible that our view of "dancing" (or other similar practices) and the "cookie jar it (they) would open" is more of an issue with our cultural lens/perspective/predispositions than it would to other cultures?
I think some things like this are universal but even this persuasion I hold with an open hand.
There's a lot of dancing in the Bible, and not a lot of condemnation of it.

There is a harsh condemnation of a woman who criticised another man for dancing in what she felt was immodest in front of other women. The scriptures teach she was struck with barrenness for her attitude about her husband dancing joyfully before the Lord.

(Disclaimer: I do not dance, my conference does not dance, and I'm comfortable with that. But I can't pretend it's anything other than what Holiness and Puritan/Holiness-influenced culture is comfortable with.)
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Ernie
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

We are talking about scenarios where unmarried men and women are dancing together.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Ernie wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:This reminds me of a presentation I heard in our church recently by a Conservative Anabaptist couple who are planning to move to Qatar. The whole presentation was about the similarities between Islam and Christianity and why Conservative Anabaptists are uniquely equipped to relate to Islamic communities because of some of the values both share.
The man and I boarded at the same place when he was 17. Before that he was living in Qatar with his parents. At some point he read about the radical reformation and kept digging deeper until he learned that some of the descendants of these folks live in North America and have much of the same worldview. We had many interesting conversations and one of them was dreaming about a conservative Anabaptist church in Qatar some day.
He has had quite the up and down journey the last 20 years, but I'm so glad he is now stabilized and ready to advance the Kingdom in this part of the world.
Oh, very interesting, Ernie! His brother in law is a teacher where I teach. It is a small world sometimes. 8-)
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appleman2006
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by appleman2006 »

So perhaps I am just a bit thick headed and slow but I am trying to get to the bottom of what we are actually talking about in this thread.
Are we suggesting that unless someone holds to our exact interpretation of application in at least all the "important" areas that we can not accept that they may be part of the body of Christ?
Are we suggesting that if one does accept that there may be sincere followers of Christ outside of our Anabaptist understanding that in fact we are not fully Anabaptist but have been drinking from strange waters?
Are we saying that there is no hope of reaching out to others with the message of Jesus and not insist that those we reach also embrace all applications in the exact same way that we do?
I am not trying to pull this off topic but rather trying to get it in a language I understand. If I am way off base in the questions I am asking as they relate to this subject feel free to ignore them.
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Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

I don't know the answer to your questions, Appleman. I hope this isn't how we're thinking. I don't believe I am. Maybe at the heart of Asher's writings is the question "if we're right, why aren't we making more converts?"
I've wondered the same. Maybe we can blame it on "Mennonite distinctives" but I think it's deeper than that. I think it is an ingrained sense of differentness.
A long time ago I talked about how when I was a little girl I thought everyone in town knew each other. I didn't know them because I was different. But they knew each other because they were the same. I wonder if that sense comes from not having a shared history, or culture.
This sense is reinforced when you dress and look differently.
Ever since I identified this mentality and have thought about, as well as living and working closely with people in "the outside", I'm not nearly as conscious of it. But I notice it when I'm with more conservative Mennonite people. When we are in a public setting they pull back socially. It even happens when more conservative Mennos are with less conservative Mennos.
This tendency to pull back and retreat from "the outside" instead of engaging "the outside" is the bigger issue of why we don't "make more disciples." I think. So I do think Asher is on to something there.
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Hats Off
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Hats Off »

appleman2006 wrote:So perhaps I am just a bit thick headed and slow but I am trying to get to the bottom of what we are actually talking about in this thread.
Are we suggesting that unless someone holds to our exact interpretation of application in at least all the "important" areas that we can not accept that they may be part of the body of Christ?
no, or I hope not
Are we suggesting that if one does accept that there may be sincere followers of Christ outside of our Anabaptist understanding that in fact we are not fully Anabaptist but have been drinking from strange waters?
no
Are we saying that there is no hope of reaching out to others with the message of Jesus and not insist that those we reach also embrace all applications in the exact same way that we do?
No
I am not trying to pull this off topic but rather trying to get it in a language I understand. If I am way off base in the questions I am asking as they relate to this subject feel free to ignore them.
I can't connect to the links so I don't know what is being said there but I understand Ernie to ask if we need labels or "surnames" to identify us. The surnames or labels are not as beneficial when talking to outsiders but can be quite helpful when talking to or about other Anabaptists.
Last edited by Hats Off on Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ernie
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

The church that I am a part of is a supposedly a "mission" church. We interact with all kinds of people. However, when it comes to Sunday church gatherings, the tendency among many in the church is to socialize with other conservative minded Christians rather than try to get to know an Asian who has limited English, or the Russian with unhandy social skills, or the white Caucasian who has little refinement. As long as this is the case, very few are going to join the church.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
RZehr
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by RZehr »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:I think it is an ingrained sense of differentness.
A long time ago I talked about how when I was a little girl I thought everyone in town knew each other. I didn't know them because I was different. But they knew each other because they were the same. I wonder if that sense comes from not having a shared history, or culture.
This sense is reinforced when you dress and look differently.
Ever since I identified this mentality and have thought about, as well as living and working closely with people in "the outside", I'm not nearly as conscious of it. But I notice it when I'm with more conservative Mennonite people. When we are in a public setting they pull back socially. It even happens when more conservative Mennos are with less conservative Mennos.
This tendency to pull back and retreat from "the outside" instead of engaging "the outside" is the bigger issue of why we don't "make more disciples." I think. So I do think Asher is on to something there.
I think having private schools contribute greatly to our separate social identity. I see how my peers and myself that went to the private Mennonite school relate to the community, is as you described. But our fathers, who attended local public high schools have comfortable ties to the local community people that we don't have.
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RZehr
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by RZehr »

As we move from a remnant mentality, to a segment mentality, I believe it become crucial that we know the difference between the Anabaptist concept of Christianity and the Protestant concept of Christianity. I think the teaching that is needed on this subject is not widespread enough.
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lesterb
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by lesterb »

RZehr wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:I think it is an ingrained sense of differentness.
A long time ago I talked about how when I was a little girl I thought everyone in town knew each other. I didn't know them because I was different. But they knew each other because they were the same. I wonder if that sense comes from not having a shared history, or culture.
This sense is reinforced when you dress and look differently.
Ever since I identified this mentality and have thought about, as well as living and working closely with people in "the outside", I'm not nearly as conscious of it. But I notice it when I'm with more conservative Mennonite people. When we are in a public setting they pull back socially. It even happens when more conservative Mennos are with less conservative Mennos.
This tendency to pull back and retreat from "the outside" instead of engaging "the outside" is the bigger issue of why we don't "make more disciples." I think. So I do think Asher is on to something there.
I think having private schools contribute greatly to our separate social identity. I see how my peers and myself that went to the private Mennonite school relate to the community, is as you described. But our fathers, who attended local public high schools have comfortable ties to the local community people that we don't have.
I went to public schools. My children all went to private schools. I don't think that has kept them from feeling comfortable around other people. I do think that it is important that we promote this on a family level. I had a community man tell me that our whole congregation changed when we moved in. I can't comment on that, and I thought that the congregation was mixing more. But my daughters and wife have always helped out in community homes as needed. But mostly they had personalities that lent to this. I was always the backwards one. In my job, I didn't get out much, so when I met people, it was because the rest of the family knew them.

But that changed when I started working in customer service. It was a very farm oriented community and I got to meet most of the community farmers. On Saturday we went back there for a 70th birthday party and met a lot of old friends. Mennonites I can meet anytime, so I tend to mix with the community folks, mostly. I really enjoy that.

So if you feel you are struggling with what Mrs N is talking about, get yourself a service related job in the community and meet people.
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