Articles by Asher Witmer

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Ernie
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Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

http://www.asherwitmer.com/when-you-wan ... tinctives/
http://www.asherwitmer.com/why-im-menno ... the-point/

Most of this way of thinking I can understand. Some of it I can appreciate. Like... "We should seek to add value to our lives no matter where it comes from rather than trying to distill everything down to the least common denominator." (not a direct quote)

However I'm still not sure what the value is of saying, "I am of Apollos, Cephas, Paul," etc. Why not identify the values and beliefs we count important and focus on that? If we need a "surname" so that seekers know where we are coming from and how we are different from other professing Christians, (something they often want to know) why not point them to a document or a descriptive term that points to our shared beliefs and values?


I request that only conservative or old order minded Anabaptists participate in this thread.
I make this request so that this thread does not get cluttered with posts that question or denounce the conservative and old order premise that the church should give direction to its members about how to apply the scriptures.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

Ernie wrote:http://www.asherwitmer.com/when-you-wan ... tinctives/
http://www.asherwitmer.com/why-im-menno ... the-point/

Most of this way of thinking I can understand. Some of it I can appreciate. Like... "We should seek to add value to our lives no matter where it comes from rather than trying to distill everything down to the least common denominator." (not a direct quote)

However I'm still not sure what the value is of saying, "I am of Apollos, Cephas, Paul," etc. Why not identify the values and beliefs we count important and focus on that? If we need a "surname" so that seekers know where we are coming from and how we are different from other professing Christians, (something they often want to know) why not point them to a document or a descriptive term that points to our shared beliefs and values?


I request that only conservative or old order minded Anabaptists participate in this thread.
I make this request so that this thread does not get cluttered with posts that question or denounce the conservative and old order premise that the church should give direction to its members about how to apply the scriptures.
Asher makes some valid points. I believe there will be an ongoing tension between placing too much emphasis on the "how we have always done it" which results in an [potentially stagnant] Anabaptist subculture and "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" which could result in total assimilation into the surrounding culture. This tension has existed since the time of the Jerusalem conference. For a group to stay alive spiritually and culturally relevant these issues will need to be carefully and prayerfully addressed in every generation and cultural setting.

As to "surnames", these are usually given by those from outside the group rather than the group self identifying whether that identification be "Christian" "Mennonite" "Horning" "Joe Wenger" etc.
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Josh
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Josh »

My church tried to do this a century ago, declaring itself simply to be the church of God in Christ and its members to simply be Christians.

But a few problems arose:

1. There are many other people who claim to be the Church of God. Some of them are cults, like the Church of God, Restoration.

2. Then there was a big new group the calls itself the Church of God in Christ. They have millions of members.

3. Finally, nobody calls us that. Everyone calls us Holdemans, instead of calling us Christians, and calls our church "the Holdeman church".

4. It is rather obvious we are a distinct people group, and most people are comfortable with the term "Mennonite".

My opinion is that the urge to call one's self "the church of God" or "a church of Christ" is noble, but the track record of Restorationism has not borne a lot of fruit. I will be content to call myself Mennonite. If I try to say I'm just Christian, people want to know "what kind" or wonder if we might be a cult. If I say "Mennonite, like Amish but we have cars and outside people can join us" they instantly understand.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by ken_sylvania »

I think these "surnames" as you call them serve as a kind of short-hand in communication to communicate a large amount of information quickly.
If I meet someone in NYC and they ask what church I'm part of, do I really want to tell them that "I'm a member of the church that meets at 123 anystreet, City, State and you can find the important values and teachings of our church summarized in the bound volumes of our church's doctrinal papers from 1900 to 2017, which can be purchased at (name of bookstore)?
Is it even possible to produce a concise descriptive term that encompasses the shared values of, for instance, Weaverland Conference? And is it realistic to think that a short descriptive term of shared values could differentiate between Groffdale Conference and OO Amish?
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Josh
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Josh »

I wonder how accepted I would be amongst other Mennonites or at Ernie's church if I announced "I am part of the church of God" and pretended that's all my religious affiliation is.
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by joshuabgood »

I read these articles. And I agree with your (Ernie's) sentiments.

I don't see the value add of a surname and I see some problems with it. Having said that...I have always belonged to a Mennonite church.

What to do...
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

Recently I was with some folks and they asked about my "religion". I told them I am "Anabaptist" which apparently was an unfamiliar term to them. Later they said to me "You are a Mennonite?". I said "Yes". Their response was " Why didn't you just say that?"
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RZehr
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by RZehr »

I was a big proponent of dropping the name Mennonite from the church sign. I still think it would be technically preferable. Because its one thing to be called something by society, but why do we need to adopt it?

I've come to terms with it in my mind by thinking of "Mennonite" as a cultural descriptive, and not a religious sect. Just like when I see a churchs sign that says Korean Christian Church. Korean isn't a description of their faith, it is a description of who they are culturally.

Maybe I'm just bending my mind to justify it.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote:I was a big proponent of dropping the name Mennonite from the church sign. I still think it would be technically preferable. Because its one thing to be called something by society, but why do we need to adopt it?

I've come to terms with it in my mind by thinking of "Mennonite" as a cultural descriptive, and not a religious sect. Just like when I see a churchs sign that says Korean Christian Church. Korean isn't a description of their faith, it is a description of who they are culturally.

Maybe I'm just bending my mind to justify it.
What does the sign say now? Christian Church Meetinghouse? I used to be a lot more opposed to identifiers than what I am now.
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by lesterb »

Ernie wrote: However I'm still not sure what the value is of saying, "I am of Apollos, Cephas, Paul," etc. Why not identify the values and beliefs we count important and focus on that? If we need a "surname" so that seekers know where we are coming from and how we are different from other professing Christians, (something they often want to know) why not point them to a document or a descriptive term that points to our shared beliefs and values?
I would have strongly agreed with you when I was younger. But I've shifted away from that a bit more. The word Mennonite is one that a lot of people in society can identify with. And usually they just want something to hook us too. They generally aren't interested enough to go and look up a document or even read a long tract summarizing our beliefs.

I have found that if they really do want to know those things, they will either ask about them, or find some other way. For instance, we bump into an older Mormon gentleman once in a while when we walk for the mail. He's very friendly and we've chatted a bit on occasion. One day he told me that he had looked up Menno Simons to try and learn more about what we believe. In his case, he was looking for some corelation between our groups. Mormons like to point out areas where we believe alike (and there are more of those areas than a lot of Mennonites will accept). But turn it around for a bit. The fact that he is a Mormon tells me a lot of basic things about him. It gives me a platform to approach him on. The common ground is fine, but there is a LOT that we DON'T agree on. It's nice to know that.

I've been along when a well meaning brother refused to call himself a Mennonite. We were picking up some furniture he had bought, and the seller asked him if he's Mennonite. He answered that he's a Christian, but that simply frustrated the seller. The word Christian can mean a thousand things, a lot of which are bad, to the general person in society. Most people will zero in on some kind of non conformity when they hear the word Mennonite. It gives them a platform to start understanding you. Depending on what the word means to them, this can be good or it can be bad, but its a starting point.

I don't think we should be ashamed to say that we're Mennonite. Don't make an issue out of it. If the conversation allows, go beyond the culture, and talk about Jesus. That's the focus. But don't leave the impression that you're trying to hide something. Having the name Mennonite in your church name does give you something to live up to that Community Church of Christ doesn't have.

But that's just my opinion, based on my frame of reference.
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