Articles by Asher Witmer

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:What I mean is...if a given practice is "sin," then is it ideal to label that sin "culture?" I would idealize calling "sin" sin rather than defining it as a cultural practice. However, using the standard definition of culture, one could say "a regularly occurring" sinful practice, is a cultural practice.

I would see some value though in defining culture as those practices in a society which aren't "sin" but are morally neutral. For instance, whether or not one wears a sari, whether or not one wears a cape dress, whether or not the streets are named or the blocks are named, etc.

These practices I would see as distinct from say the rite of Sati (burning widows on pyres).
I would not label a given practice that is sinful as "culture".

Here is an example of what I was trying to say...
Some cultures encourage unmarried men and women to dance together. While I would not call this sin, I would say that such a culture is not as conducive to holiness as a culture that makes no provision for the flesh in this regard.

Other cultures encourage couples to have very little physical contact before marriage. I think this is conducive to holiness. It certainly takes more than this to be holy, but this can be a help.

Why open the cookie jar in front of a child and let him smell it and then tell him not to eat any or even lust after one.
Sounds like a good culture would be strict Islam and it would be conducive to holiness.
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Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Josh wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Josh wrote:Do you believe the gospel is more suited and easier to accept for ethnic Mennonites than for people from other cultures?
Certain parts of the gospel, yes. Other parts of the gospel, no.
Josh wrote:Where is this principle in scripture?
Not sure what principle you are referring to at this point.
The principle that we should raise our kids really well so they will be more likely to accept Christ. And overall, the principle that being raised Mennonite / C.A. means more likely to accept Christ.

(Alongside this is the belief that if not raised Mennonite, it will be difficult to accept Christ, and that even if one does join the church, one will probably eventually fall away and certainly won't ever really figure out how to "live right". Related to this is reluctance for NMB people to inter-marry with ethnic Anabaptists, which basically expects NMBs to adopt a life of celibacy, or try to find one of the other also very rare NMBs to marry.)
It occurred to me that the Calvinist who believes in God's election, would still consider it very important to raise their children in godly homes and to disciple them in Christian virtue, not because they believe they can affect God's election, but simply because they are being obedient to Christ to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
However, most Mennonites believe that God calls all people to be saved but it is the condition of the soil of the heart that affects whether that person will accept the Gospel.

If I am right I think the Calvinist would be be comforted that even if a child is not God's elect, that child's godly training will contribute to making the culture more Christian.
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Ernie
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote:
Josh wrote:Where is this principle in scripture?
Ernie wrote:Not sure what principle you are referring to at this point.
The principle that we should raise our kids really well so they will be more likely to accept Christ. And overall, the principle that being raised Mennonite / C.A. means more likely to accept Christ.

I believe that a good CA culture, as well as other good Christian sub-cultures, make it more likely that Children will adopt certain aspects of the Gospel. (I'm not sure that a bad Christian sub-culture is all that advantageous.)
Josh wrote: (Alongside this is the belief that if not raised Mennonite, it will be difficult to accept Christ, and that even if one does join the church, one will probably eventually fall away and certainly won't ever really figure out how to "live right". Related to this is reluctance for NMB people to inter-marry with ethnic Anabaptists, which basically expects NMBs to adopt a life of celibacy, or try to find one of the other also very rare NMBs to marry.)
I don't believe any of this stuff.

I do think a person not raised in a good Christian sub-culture will not be as predisposed to adopt certain parts of the Gospel and could hinder them from embracing all of the Gospel. The same could be true for people who are raised in a good Christian subculture, because even in the best subcultures, there are missing pieces of the Gospel.

I believe that there are parts of the Gospel that are best understood by folks who did not grow up in a good Christian subculture. That is why I have come to believe that a church is dysfunctional if it does not frequently have people joining the church who did NOT grow up in a good Christian subculture.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:It occurred to me that the Calvinist who believes in God's election, would still consider it very important to raise their children in godly homes and to disciple them in Christian virtue, not because they believe they can affect God's election, but simply because they are being obedient to Christ to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
However, most Mennonites believe that God calls all people to be saved but it is the condition of the soil of the heart that affects whether that person will accept the Gospel.

If I am right I think the Calvinist would be be comforted that even if a child is not God's elect, that child's godly training will contribute to making the culture more Christian.
:up:
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote:Sounds like a good culture would be strict Islam and it would be conducive to holiness.
No. A strict Islamic culture has many pieces that are in conflict with the Gospel. However, this doesn't mean that some parts of a strict Islamic culture wouldn't benefit a person in accepting the Gospel.

I don't see this sub-culture discussion as being an all or none thing. I think it is multi-faceted.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Ernie wrote:
Josh wrote:Sounds like a good culture would be strict Islam and it would be conducive to holiness.
No. A strict Islamic culture has many pieces that are in conflict with the Gospel. However, this doesn't mean that some parts of a strict Islamic culture wouldn't benefit a person in accepting the Gospel.

I don't see this sub-culture discussion as being an all or none thing. I think it is multi-faceted.
This reminds me of a presentation I heard in our church recently by a Conservative Anabaptist couple who are planning to move to Qatar. The whole presentation was about the similarities between Islam and Christianity and why Conservative Anabaptists are uniquely equipped to relate to Islamic communities because of some of the values both share. He made the point that Anabaptist women are especially able to bridge cultural differences with Islamic women because of shared values. I think this is a significant insight.
Is God positioning Conservative Anabaptists to be the Jesus bridge to bring bring reconciliation between the clash of cultures, even civilizations? I think this is a poetic, even revolutionary idea.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by joshuabgood »

Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:What I mean is...if a given practice is "sin," then is it ideal to label that sin "culture?" I would idealize calling "sin" sin rather than defining it as a cultural practice. However, using the standard definition of culture, one could say "a regularly occurring" sinful practice, is a cultural practice.

I would see some value though in defining culture as those practices in a society which aren't "sin" but are morally neutral. For instance, whether or not one wears a sari, whether or not one wears a cape dress, whether or not the streets are named or the blocks are named, etc.

These practices I would see as distinct from say the rite of Sati (burning widows on pyres).
I would not label a given practice that is sinful as "culture".

Here is an example of what I was trying to say...
Some cultures encourage unmarried men and women to dance together. While I would not call this sin, I would say that such a culture is not as conducive to holiness as a culture that makes no provision for the flesh in this regard.

Other cultures encourage couples to have very little physical contact before marriage. I think this is conducive to holiness. It certainly takes more than this to be holy, but this can be a help.

Why open the cookie jar in front of a child and let him smell it and then tell him not to eat any or even lust after one.
I think I now understand what you are saying. However, not sure if I am quite with you. Is it possible that your view of "dancing" (or other similar practices) and the "cookie jar it (they) would open" is more of a problem with our cultural lens/perspective/predispositions than it would to other cultures?
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joshuabgood
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by joshuabgood »

joshuabgood wrote:
Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:What I mean is...if a given practice is "sin," then is it ideal to label that sin "culture?" I would idealize calling "sin" sin rather than defining it as a cultural practice. However, using the standard definition of culture, one could say "a regularly occurring" sinful practice, is a cultural practice.

I would see some value though in defining culture as those practices in a society which aren't "sin" but are morally neutral. For instance, whether or not one wears a sari, whether or not one wears a cape dress, whether or not the streets are named or the blocks are named, etc.

These practices I would see as distinct from say the rite of Sati (burning widows on pyres).
I would not label a given practice that is sinful as "culture".

Here is an example of what I was trying to say...
Some cultures encourage unmarried men and women to dance together. While I would not call this sin, I would say that such a culture is not as conducive to holiness as a culture that makes no provision for the flesh in this regard.

Other cultures encourage couples to have very little physical contact before marriage. I think this is conducive to holiness. It certainly takes more than this to be holy, but this can be a help.

Why open the cookie jar in front of a child and let him smell it and then tell him not to eat any or even lust after one.
I think I now understand what you are saying. However, not sure if I am quite with you. Is it possible that our view of "dancing" (or other similar practices) and the "cookie jar it (they) would open" is more of an issue with our cultural lens/perspective/predispositions than it would to other cultures?
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Ernie
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

joshuabgood wrote:I think I now understand what you are saying. However, not sure if I am quite with you. Is it possible that our view of "dancing" (or other similar practices) and the "cookie jar it (they) would open" is more of an issue with our cultural lens/perspective/predispositions than it would to other cultures?
I think some things like this are universal but even this persuasion I hold with an open hand.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
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Re: Articles by Asher Witmer

Post by Ernie »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:This reminds me of a presentation I heard in our church recently by a Conservative Anabaptist couple who are planning to move to Qatar. The whole presentation was about the similarities between Islam and Christianity and why Conservative Anabaptists are uniquely equipped to relate to Islamic communities because of some of the values both share.
The man and I boarded at the same place when he was 17. Before that he was living in Qatar with his parents. At some point he read about the radical reformation and kept digging deeper until he learned that some of the descendants of these folks live in North America and have much of the same worldview. We had many interesting conversations and one of them was dreaming about a conservative Anabaptist church in Qatar some day.
He has had quite the up and down journey the last 20 years, but I'm so glad he is now stabilized and ready to advance the Kingdom in this part of the world.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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