Quakers and Anabaptists

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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temporal1
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Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

Wondering if BRushby will be present on MN?

A couple of years ago, i discovered Quakers in my family history, on my mother's father's side.
They were members of Lost Creek Friends, Eastern Tennessee.
http://www.tngenweb.org/campbell/history/Quakers.html

These folks moved to Indiana just before the U.S. Civil War, a time when many Quakers moved to be north of the Mason/Dixon Line.

At some point, i came across a book, "The Calverts who were Quakers," by J.R. Buckey.
i finally got a copy this week. i remembered seeing the Calvert name in early family records .. again, along my mother's father's line.

There is family link in this book (i was not sure there would be a connection) - there are a few pages on this family. They began as Quakers in mid-1600's England, moved to Ireland, then, with land acquired from William Penn, moved to PA. (i had no idea.)

They then moved to the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, were among 36 founding members of the Hopewell Meeting House: (it's still there)
HOPEWELL was the first Quaker meeting established in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. It was originally known as Opeckan and was set off from the Concord Quarterly Meeting of Pennsylvania in 1734. The actual date of first settlement is thought to be around 1730. The meeting house is located about 6 miles north of Winchester, Frederick Co., Virginia.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~quakers/hopewell.htm

Are Quakers Anabaptists? .. :?
i've read they are, i've read they are not. i've read, they do not baptise, i've read, they do.

Without question, early Quakers, England, mid-1600's, were influenced by Anabaptists.
They have been persecuted in ways Anabaptists have been, esp for CO beliefs.

There are some commonalities with today's liberal Mennonites, esp regarding unapologetic involvement in politics. (This may be a clue regarding Nixon's Quaker connections? Possibly about the Sidwell Friends private school in D.C.?)

Quaker Anabaptists? / Neu Bruderthaler
http://bruderthaler.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... tists.html

For Brother Rushby, this is likely all elementary. for me, confusing.
Finding these documents causes me to wonder more about overall history+details, and, Anabaptist connections.

My parents were deliberately hush-hush about family history, esp religious history.
They did not believe in infant baptism, wanted each of us (6) to choose our paths as adults.
i'm sure they had their reasons to feel so strongly. not all pleasant.

how much of early Quaker beliefs exist today? evidently, it varies by group (?)
would the early Quakers recognize today's Quakers?

one interesting note of many.
their marriage certificates were witnessed/signed by many (presumably the adult) members.
marriages required the group's prior approval.

your turn - :) :arrow:
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MaxPC
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by MaxPC »

I'm interested in their status as Anabaptists as well.

My perception is that they don't seem to have a standardized teaching/confession on Jesus. Some of their fellowships have one, some don't. The group known as Quakers on a whole doesn't seem to have this standard.

I may be wrong though.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Neither Quakers nor Shakers are, or ever have been Anabaptists.
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Josh
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Josh »

Quakers don't believe in baptism at all. That would make them the opposite of Anabaptists in a literal sense.

Evangelical Friends have moved towards an evangelical understanding of most things, but I wouldn't really consider them Quakers.

There is a man in my congregation who had a lot of experience with Quakers when they had more numbers where I live, if you have particular questions, I could ask him.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by JimFoxvog »

Here's my quick summary, but I'm no authority.

Quakers get linked with Anabaptists as "historic peace churches". There are conservative Quakers who dress similarly to conservative Anabaptists. Historically, both value more simple living. Both have avoided taking oaths and displaying national flags. God is the authority for both, but Quakers find God speaking primarily in the inner spirit within the community, while Anabaptists have primarily found God speaking through the community's interpretation of Scripture.
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Neto
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Neto »

JimFoxvog wrote:Here's my quick summary, but I'm no authority.

Quakers get linked with Anabaptists as "historic peace churches". There are conservative Quakers who dress similarly to conservative Anabaptists. Historically, both value more simple living. Both have avoided taking oaths and displaying national flags. God is the authority for both, but Quakers find God speaking primarily in the inner spirit within the community, while Anabaptists have primarily found God speaking through the community's interpretation of Scripture.
A good summary, in my understanding. Regarding baptism, I think the Quakers would say that they DO believe in baptism, but that for them, it is a spiritual event, not with water. The same with communion.

Another difference - they accept women pastors. I got acquainted with a girl while in missions training whose parents were both pastors, and actually in different Quaker congregations.
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

i appreciate the input here.
as i continue to read, i'm met with more confusion.
i'm trying to imagine how Quakers came about, what was going on in the world at that time?

i have often wondered, "what was going on in England/the British Isles, at the time of Luther and Menno Simons?" .. did Quakers begin spontaneously, or, as a result/influence of what was going on in Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, Russia? .. now, i read, there was influence, people did not live in a vaccum, people were seriously questioning, seeking better understanding (than state churches, monarchs allowed.)

they were seeking the Holy Spirit. this was dangerous, it caused much havoc.

i'm TRYING to ignore contemporary Quakers for the time being (for my own sanity.)
there is a Meeting house not terribly far from me. i've never visited. i have looked at their website. they are highly political. this makes me sad, but it's undeniable.

i don't see how attempting to seek the Holy Spirit, while being so highly political, could be successful.
possibly, contemporary Quakers may have much in common with Universalists? .. at least, many of them. there seems to be a vast range in beliefs under the claimed Quaker label (by their own description.)

from FGC / Friends General Conference
http://www.fgcquaker.org/explore/faqs-a ... Sacraments
For Quakers, sacraments are understood as an inward, spiritual, experience.
We don’t have a custom of performing sacramental ceremonies.


For more on why not, see the QuakerSpeak video "Form without Substance." ..
from what i'm beginning to learn, it's not that they don't believe in baptism, communion, etc., it's that they believe these are matters of the inward spirit .. they observe them inwardly.

this is not the same as "not believing." (i am questioning, as a learner.)

i find some of their beginning premises to be admirable (in spirit.)
repeating, i'm an infant in understanding.

on a personal level, i wonder about my other family lines? .. mother's mother's line, father's father's and mother' lines. every individual inherits from (multitudes) before. i have found this one link to Quakers, but, this line (i.e., the faith) did not "prevail" in my family .. Quakers were not even mentioned to me or my siblings. so, what happened?! questions i'll likely never know in full.

in the past, i have wondered, "where were my ancestors during The Plague, during the times of the Vikings, etc.?" .. everyone living today has ancestors who survived all earlier times in some fashion, even if only long enough to reproduce. who were they? what were they doing? because, they were somewhere!

(i think) even though that which is lost or rejected escapes conscious memory, there are traits and sensibilities that are silently passed along in individuals, families, communities, cultures .. in addition to what is now known via science as DNA and genes, etc.

all by God's design. no one appears out of nothing, no one appears without God's hand.

i appreciate responses on this.
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Josh
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Josh »

There are conservative Quakers (including one meeting near me). Their theology is different enough from evangelicals and from Anabaptists that most of us wouldn't be comfortable there.
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote:A good summary, in my understanding. Regarding baptism, I think the Quakers would say that they DO believe in baptism, but that for them, it is a spiritual event, not with water. The same with communion.

Another difference - they accept women pastors. I got acquainted with a girl while in missions training whose parents were both pastors, and actually in different Quaker congregations.
i was working on the above post before seeing yours. :)
i see you noticed similar regarding sacraments. this difference in understanding, and observing, seems to be a baseline difference for Quakers.

i'll have to read more about "women pastors." (so far, i think) they do not have pastors or formal leadership, again, strongly believing in the "Light within" everyone. they recognize men and women equally, not observing headship (??) .. Margaret Fell was an early prominent female, i wonder how much her early influence impacted those beliefs? which must have been profound in the 1600's.

the liberal end of Mennonites allows women in ministry.
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Josh »

Quakers never recognised the principle of headship at all.
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