Quakers and Anabaptists

[Bill Rushby]

Hello, Barnhart! I am too old and tired at 78 to attempt a Ph.D. thesis, even serialized on MennoNet. My current leading is to encourage an Anabaptist/Quaker fellowship in the Champlain Valley (NY/VT). Toward that end, I am also attempting to get a house of my own. If this all works out, perhaps you could take the NYC/Montreal train and come for a visit! The local station is a mile or so from my younger sister's, where I live at the moment.

By the way, it boggles my mind how anyone 70 or older could work well as President in these "troublous" times.

[temporal1]

Bill:
Actually, I seem to have one leg in the Quaker world and the other in the Mennonite/Brethren world.

I would not for even one minute claim that the Quaker take on Christian faith and witness is flawless. In fact, my impression is that it has gone downhill.

Yet, as one "cradle" Conservative Friend-turned-Mennonite says, "I can't get Quakerism out of my system!" So, here I am, near the end of my life, still stuck in between!!!!

Reading about the early Quakers, some parts are so touching and compelling.

Bill:
Roger Finke and Rodney Stark, in *The Churching of America, 1776-1990*,
claimed that approximately one in four early Americans were of Quaker persuasion.

If I were forty years younger, I would write my Ph.D. thesis on why Friends became one of the major losers in the American religious economy!

I am already in the dog house among the Conservative Quaker elite for my analytical essay on "Conservative Friends" in *Quaker Religious Thought*. If I wrote the aforementioned dissertation on American Quakerism, I might get burned at the stake!! - - -

By the way, Friends in colonial Pennsylvania were active in the colonial legislature,
keeping it from waging war against the Indians!!

Quaker interactions with Indians, and slaves, was interesting; (i think) a great contribution to U.S. history, not very recognized. It’s interesting to read how the internal debates unfolded, not very different from contested matters in faith groups today.

Bill:
During the 1750s, there was a major religious revival and tightening of the Quaker church discipline and many nominal Friends, whom Richard Bauman called the "politicos", were forced out,
and the Society of Friends disengaged from political involvement for many years.

See Richard Bauman, *For the Reputation of Truth: Politics, Religion and Conflict Among the Pennsylvania Quakers, 1750-1800* The Johns Hopkins University Press; 1st edition (June 1, 1971)

Thank you for the sources.
i’m not sure about the sources i find, i add links, wondering if you recognize them, find them credible, etc.

Are you now near Burlington? Or upstate NY?

Have you written your memoirs?
i would enjoy reading about your life from young - "cradle" Conservative Friend-turned-Mennonite,”
about your family, places you’ve lived, your faith, travels, your education ..

[SusanAnn]

Actually, I seem to have one leg in the Quaker world and the other in the Mennonite/Brethren world. I would not for even one minute claim that the Quaker take on Christian faith and witness is flawless. In fact, my impression is that it has gone downhill. Yet, as one "cradle" Conservative Friend-turned-Mennonite says, "I can't get Quakerism out of my system!" So, here I am, near the end of my life, still stuck in between!!!!

Thank you for writing this - that's pretty much where I am, I have spent some time worshipping with the Baptist churches in my city but I just can't get Quakerism out of my system either. I

[Bill Rushby]

Are you now near Burlington? Or upstate NY? In New York State, 40 miles southwest of Burlington VT, as the crow flies! I was born at Cheever, a bump in the road near Port Henry NY.

Have you written your memoirs? Thanks, Temporal! My life has been sad and disappointing. I am not willing to reduce it to print!

Temporal: i would enjoy reading about your life from young - "cradle" Conservative Friend-turned-Mennonite,” about your family, places you’ve lived, your faith, travels, your education .. Bill: I am not a "cradle" Conservative Friend. Brad, whom I quoted, won't have a computer in his home!



I do write about other peoples' lives and witness and have so far published essays on Cyrus Cooper (of Columbiana OH fame) and Ann Branson (of Flushing OH, where Jamboree USA has an amphitheater!). I have also written about Progressive Brethren Henry Holsinger, published in *Brethren Life and Thought.* If the Coronavirus doesn't get me, I may yet get my paper on Stephen Grellet published. Stephen's early 19th C life and evangelistic journeys, as described in his memoirs, thrilled many backwoods Conservative Friends, including my parents-in-law and ...yours truly! The unabridged version of Stephen Grellet's is 900 pages long; I read my copy until it fell apart!!

Grellet and William Allen wrote extensively about their first-handed encounter with the Russian Mennonites. I think Harold Lehman wrote about this in an essay about Quaker/Mennonite relationships.

By the way, did you know that Donald Trump's mother came from the Isle of Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides, a bastion of "Old Order" Calvinism. Until the last 50 years or so, their church services were conducted in Gaelic (Gal-ic). They still hold some Gaelic services, I think. Their Gaelic hymnody is available in CD format.

I won't say what they think of Donald!

[SusanAnn]

I do write about other peoples' lives and witness and have so far published essays on Cyrus Cooper (of Columbiana OH fame) and Ann Branson (of Flushing OH, where Jamboree USA has an amphitheater!). I have also written about Progressive Brethren Henry Holsinger, published in *Brethren Life and Thought.* If the Coronavirus doesn't get me, I may yet get my paper on Stephen Grellet published. Stephen's early 19th C life and evangelistic journeys, as described in his memoirs, thrilled many backwoods Conservative Friends, including my parents-in-law and ...yours truly! The unabridged version of Stephen Grellet's is 900 pages long; I read my copy until it fell apart!!

Grellet and William Allen wrote extensively about their first-handed encounter with the Russian Mennonites. I think Harold Lehman wrote about this in an essay about Quaker/Mennonite relationships.

I would like to read your paper- my Quaker history isn't very good, but I was born and still live in Norwich, the city where Elizabeth Fry was born - she's still pretty famous in these parts, and I think it was Stephen Grellet who persuaded her to go to Newgate prison.

[temporal1]

Bill Rushby:

Are you now near Burlington? Or upstate NY?

In New York State, 40 miles southwest of Burlington VT, as the crow flies! I was born at Cheever, a bump in the road near Port Henry NY.

We lived in the Burlington area, early 1970’s, i worked at UVM, Morrill Hall. i met a few Vermont sheepherders there. i learned to knit on my lunch hours. i bought some wool yarn from a farmer, i’ve never been able to replace it. i knit a sweater that our 2 year old daughter, then son, then granddaughter wore! it looks like new.
the farmer i bought it from had several children. he told me his wife knitted sweaters for all, they looked better+better with each washing. the little sweater i knit has not disappointed.

my family is on the West Coast. i often wish they were in Vermont. we had lovely years there.
my daughter+family lived in Montreal for 2 years. when i visited, we drove to Burlington a couple of times. so many changes. the highways! (interesting, ‘cause, when we were there, the older Vermonters said the very same about changes, AND, talked about unpaved roads, “mud season,” and so on.) i remember pictures of mud season. o.my.

Bill Rushby:

Have you written your memoirs?

Thanks, Temporal! My life has been sad and disappointing. I am not willing to reduce it to print!

i am praying for a change of heart on this.

Bill Rushby:

Temporal: i would enjoy reading about your life from young - "cradle" Conservative Friend-turned-Mennonite,” about your family, places you’ve lived, your faith, travels, your education ..

I am not a "cradle" Conservative Friend.
Brad, whom I quoted, won't have a computer in his home!

i wasn’t sure i understood just right. evenso, my suggestion stands.

Bill Rushby:
I do write about other peoples' lives and witness and have so far published essays on
Cyrus Cooper (of Columbiana OH fame) and Ann Branson (of Flushing OH, where Jamboree USA has an amphitheater!).
I have also written about Progressive Brethren Henry Holsinger, published in
*Brethren Life and Thought.* If the Coronavirus doesn't get me, I may yet get my paper on
Stephen Grellet published.

Stephen's early 19th C life and evangelistic journeys, as described in his memoirs, thrilled many backwoods Conservative Friends, including my parents-in-law and ...yours truly!
The unabridged version of Stephen Grellet's is 900 pages long; I read my copy until it fell apart!!

Grellet and William Allen wrote extensively about their first-handed encounter with the
Russian Mennonites. I think Harold Lehman wrote about this in an essay about Quaker/Mennonite relationships.

i so appreciate these sources. you are a treasure.

Bill Rushby:
By the way, did you know that Donald Trump's mother came from the Isle of Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides, a bastion of "Old Order" Calvinism. Until the last 50 years or so, their church services were conducted in Gaelic (Gal-ic). They still hold some Gaelic services, I think. Their Gaelic hymnody is available in CD format.

I won't say what they think of Donald!

i’ve read a tiny bit about all this.

[temporal1]

Actually, I seem to have one leg in the Quaker world and the other in the Mennonite/Brethren world. I would not for even one minute claim that the Quaker take on Christian faith and witness is flawless. In fact, my impression is that it has gone downhill.
Yet, as one "cradle" Conservative Friend-turned-Mennonite says, "I can't get Quakerism out of my system!" So, here I am, near the end of my life, still stuck in between!!!!

Thank you for writing this - that's pretty much where I am, I have spent some time worshipping with the Baptist churches in my city but I just can't get Quakerism out of my system either. I

When our granddaughter was born, i was answering questions from her mother. At one point, i could see her questioning .. i assured her, “i’m not making this up!”
This made me wonder, “Where did i learn this?” - i realized, newborns are the same now as they ever were, no matter what era or culture, what socio-economic status, newborns’ needs are the same.
i learned from my mother and grandmothers ..

i began to wonder how far back these “lessons” went, passed from one generation to the next,
mostly oral, mother to daughter, grandmother to granddaughter, on and on, over (eons)?

i began to think of life and culture as a baton race, each generation carrying the baton (information) forward. i began to understand how my mother spoke of the U.S. Civil War as if she’d been there! - she was born in 1917. this puzzled me! her elders had been there. (before technology, when people still talked to one another.)

there were “things i noticed” growing up, questions, that had no tangible answers.
i did not know there were Quakers in my family’s history. but, in my parents, i noticed a distinct respect for Quakers, and Amish, too, very little in words. and some overlapping beliefs. not idealism, they did not convey messages of fantasies, not envy, but respect.

(i think) batons are passed, even unconsciously. sometimes, when consciously denied/rejected!
.. Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit ..

(i think) we are spiritual beings, more complex than we understand.
maybe one day, all these confusing+encouraging flashes+fragments of Light we glimpse will make sense.

So, yes. i suspect Quakerism will stay with you.

[Bill Rushby]

SusanAnn wrote: "I would like to read your paper- my Quaker history isn't very good, but I was born and still live in Norwich, the city where Elizabeth Fry was born - she's still pretty famous in these parts, and I think it was Stephen Grellet who persuaded her to go to Newgate prison."

Timothy Larsen has a wonderful essay on Elizabeth Fry in his *A People of One Faith: The Bible and the Victorians*. Chapter 7: "Quakers, Elizabeth Fry and "Reading". Oxford University Press, 2011.

If and when I manage to get my life in order (in disarray at the moment) I'll see if my Grellet paper is sufficiently together to send a copy to you!

[Bill Rushby]

WFR: By the way, did you know that Donald Trump's mother came from the Isle of Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides, a bastion of "Old Order" Calvinism. Until the last 50 years or so, their church services were conducted in Gaelic (Gal-ic). They still hold some Gaelic services, I think. Their Gaelic hymnody is available in CD format.

I won't say what they think of Donald!

From Wikipedia on "isle of Lewis": "Some churches in Lewis practice precenting the line, a distinctive, heterophonic style of congregational psalm singing in Scottish Gaelic."

"Precenting" could be the origin of "lining hymns" in Black, Old Regular Baptist and Old Order Anabaptist churches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lining_out

[SusanAnn]

SusanAnn wrote: "I would like to read your paper- my Quaker history isn't very good, but I was born and still live in Norwich, the city where Elizabeth Fry was born - she's still pretty famous in these parts, and I think it was Stephen Grellet who persuaded her to go to Newgate prison."

Timothy Larsen has a wonderful essay on Elizabeth Fry in his *A People of One Faith: The Bible and the Victorians*. Chapter 7: "Quakers, Elizabeth Fry and "Reading". Oxford University Press, 2011.

If and when I manage to get my life in order (in disarray at the moment) I'll see if my Grellet paper is sufficiently together to send a copy to you!

Bill, was only thinking today that the whole Coronavirus challenge is making it difficult to predict when anything is going to happen, and I read in a previous post in this thread that you were looking to buy a house, so you definitely get given lots of time to get your Grellet paper together - I look forward to it though and would be happy to read it in a much less then perfect state.

Will look for the Timothy Larsen book when I get to our library, which may not be for a while.

Totally off subject, but would Donald Trump's mother be part of the whole " Wee Free" folk, if so that is fascinating, they're quite a distinctive group.