Quakers and Anabaptists

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Josh »

There was no connection between Anabaptism and English pacifist movements, nor with English believers' baptism movements. The three things arose spontaneously - I would argue by the spirit of God and his word not being rendered void.
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote:There was no connection between Anabaptism and English pacifist movements, nor with English believers' baptism movements.
The three things arose spontaneously - I would argue by the spirit of God and his word not being rendered void.
i don't have a preference about how these things happened, i find it all intriguing to think over.

i'm interested in how, and, i may never feel certain about how information+ideas "got around." when folks are being imprisoned and killed for their deeply-held beliefs, word does get around. Europe is not that big, the world was "made smaller" by the Roman roads ..

i agree, the Holy Spirit determines outcomes.
people can read, share verbally, or experience spontaneous Light, none of it has meaning without the Holy Spirit - and, the Spirit can be innocently misunderstood and/or deliberately exploited for personal gain. many with scientific minds can't handle the "elusive" Holy Spirit, i'm not so burdened. thankfully, many with keen scientific minds accept+respect the Holy Spirit.

certainly, Quakers put tremendous value on the Holy Spirit. as did all the early believers.
they sought the Holy Spirit in somewhat different ways. aside from misunderstanding and exploitation which cause such awful havoc, the HS is of bedrock importance to authentic faith.

Neto is an experienced anthropologist, i wonder if he might have more to add to how these important times unfolded?

BRushby may yet post on this topic, too.

before MD, i had always read/heard that all Protestants followed (i.e., came after, as a result of) Martin Luther's protest within the Catholic Church. (that was a neat little package to accept!)
i believe this is commonly accepted. on MD, i learned of the early Anabaptists, active contemporaries of that period.

Light does not happen without the Holy Spirit. how was the HS working in those times?
i don't yet feel certain i understand, i may never get there. i can imagine different scenarios, each one amazing+wonderful. i have no preference about which way, just interested in how it was.

God's created human mind is fascinating; with the Holy Spirit, there are no limits.
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

Dates / events swirling in my mind: :)
Roman roads / begun in 312 BC

https://www.britannica.com/technology/Roman-road-system
.. The Roman road system made possible Roman conquest and administration and later provided highways for the great migrations into the empire and a means for the diffusion of Christianity. Despite deterioration from neglect, it continued to serve Europe throughout the Middle Ages, and many fragments of the system survive today ..
i've a friend who compared today's internet with the Roman roads. 8-)

Gutenburg Press / 1439
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg
In Renaissance Europe, the arrival of mechanical movable type printing introduced the era of mass communication which permanently altered the structure of society. The relatively unrestricted circulation of information—including revolutionary ideas—transcended borders, captured the masses in the Reformation and threatened the power of political and religious authorities; the sharp increase in literacy broke the monopoly of the literate elite on education and learning and bolstered the emerging middle class. Across Europe, the increasing cultural self-awareness of its people led to the rise of proto-nationalism, accelerated by the flowering of the European vernacular languages to the detriment of Latin's status as lingua franca. In the 19th century, the replacement of the hand-operated Gutenberg-style press by steam-powered rotary presses allowed printing on an industrial scale, while Western-style printing was adopted all over the world, becoming practically the sole medium for modern bulk printing.[7]

The use of movable type was a marked improvement on the handwritten manuscript, which was the existing method of book production in Europe, and upon woodblock printing, and revolutionized European book-making. Gutenberg's printing technology spread rapidly throughout Europe and later the world.

His major work, the Gutenberg Bible (also known as the 42-line Bible), has been acclaimed for its high aesthetic and technical quality.
Martin Luther / the German Bible / 1522
http://www.christianitytoday.com/histor ... world.html
Das Newe Testament Deutzsch was published in September 1522. A typographical masterpiece, containing woodcuts from Lucas Cranach's workshop and selections from Albrecht Durer's famous Apocalypse series, the September Bibel sold an estimated five thousand copies in the first two months alone.
Menno Simons / ordained 1524
http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Menno_ ... 1496-1561)
"Pondering these things my conscience tormented me so that I could no longer endure it.... If I continue this way and do not live agreeably to the Word of the Lord..., if I through bodily fear do not lay bare the foundations of truth, nor use all my powers to direct the wandering flock who would gladly do their duty if they knew it, to the true pastures of Christ -- Oh, how shall their shed blood, shed in the midst of transgression, rise against me at the judgment of the Almighty and pronounce sentence against my poor, miserable soul!"
Menno continues his account by stating that his "heart trembled within" him and that he "prayed to God with sighs and tears that He would give" him, "a sorrowing sinner, the gift of His grace" and create within him "a clean heart and graciously through the merits of the crimson blood of Christ forgive" his "unclean walk..." and bestow upon him "wisdom, Spirit, courage ... so that" he might "preach His exalted adorable name and holy Word in purity, and make known His truth to His glory."
George Fox / Quakers / 1647
http://www.georgefox.edu/about/history/quakers.html
"There is one, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition." This discovery of Christ as a present reality turned George Fox from frustrated seeker to joyous finder and initiated a major Christian awakening in England. George Fox was 23 years old (1647), and already a discerning critic of his culture. When human counselors could not fill his spiritual void, he turned to Bible reading and prayer, often in the sanctuary of "hollow trees and lonesome places." On some of these occasions he received "openings," e.g., that attending a university does not make a minister, that "the people not the steeple is the church," and that the same Spirit who inspired the Scriptures is their true interpreter.

Even as a lad Fox was unusually sensitive to God, having been well taught by godly parents. He remembered experiencing the "pureness" of divine presence at the age of 11. This vision of the world as God wants it contrasted starkly with the world of political violence and ecclesiastical hypocrisy which he experienced as a youth. George Fox worked first as a cobbler and then as a partner with a wool and cattle dealer. His integrity brought him commercial success.
But the spiritual conflict raged furiously within him until his experience of Christ brought peace ..
There was a lot going on, much more than these events, all impacted+advanced by the Roman roads (not built to spread God's Word!) .. and, by the printing press .. today, the internet is, also, being used to share God's Word.
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Josh
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Josh »

Good insight, t1. The Roman roads, the printing press, and modern day Internet are all of the same ilk.
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Neto
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote:There was no connection between Anabaptism and English pacifist movements, nor with English believers' baptism movements. The three things arose spontaneously - I would argue by the spirit of God and his word not being rendered void.
There were, however, meetings between Dutch anabaptists & English religious dissidents in the early period, with Menno Simons, actually. (I'm sorry that I do not have time right now to find references for this.) A ship load of refugees from England was denied entrance into Holland by the authorities for some time, and anabaptists went out to the boat and provided aid (medicine & food). Later, they were allowed to disembark, and although most eventually returned to England, some stayed permanently. [It is possible that this may be where my own family name passed into the Dutch anabaptist group, as it is somewhat common in England, and used in various place names in both New Zealand and Australia (Buller River flowing through Buller Gorge in Buller Province in NZ, and Buller Mountain in Australia).]

But you are correct in that (as I recall) these English folks (at least as a group) did not accept the anabaptist position on separation - the common ground was believers' baptism.
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote:
Josh wrote:There was no connection between Anabaptism and English pacifist movements, nor with English believers' baptism movements. The three things arose spontaneously - I would argue by the spirit of God and his word not being rendered void.
There were, however, meetings between Dutch anabaptists & English religious dissidents in the early period, with Menno Simons, actually. (I'm sorry that I do not have time right now to find references for this.)

A ship load of refugees from England was denied entrance into Holland by the authorities for some time, and anabaptists went out to the boat and provided aid (medicine & food). Later, they were allowed to disembark, and although most eventually returned to England, some stayed permanently.

[It is possible that this may be where my own family name passed into the Dutch anabaptist group, as it is somewhat common in England, and used in various place names in both New Zealand and Australia (Buller River flowing through Buller Gorge in Buller Province in NZ, and Buller Mountain in Australia).]

But you are correct in that (as I recall) these English folks (at least as a group) did not accept the anabaptist position on separation - the common ground was believers' baptism.
Yes, the Puritans wanted to "purify" the church, not leave it; Pilgrims wanted to leave the existing church (this is discussed a little in the above History link, Puritans/Pilgrims.) This ship load of English refugees were likely Puritans (?) ..

In any ship load, there were likely ones who were not all of one mind ..
George Fox was born into a Puritan family, yet, he did not "settle" with the Puritans, eventually leading to the Quaker movement, which separated, and was CO.

real life paths crossed.
some stayed, some returned to England. ideas exchanged. marriages. trade. 8-)
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PeterG
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by PeterG »

Many years ago I wrote a research paper on the relationship between Anabaptism and the first English Baptists for a church history class. Here's the most relevant part, with apologies for the academese:
We finally reach a clear, well documented case of interaction between
Anabaptists and English Separatists with the Separatist church of John Smyth, former members of which eventually founded England's first Baptist church. Smyth absorbed Puritan ideas at Cambridge while there from 1586 to 1598. Two books published in 1603 and 1605, respectively, reveal him as a mainstream Puritan, with no apparent sympathies for Separatism or Anabaptism. However, in approximately 1606, Smyth began to pastor a Separatist congregation (Coggins 32-34). This church suffered persecution at the hand of the government, and less than a year after its founding, nearly all of the congregation moved to Amsterdam in the Netherlands, a place known for an unusual degree of religious toleration (Coggins 43-44). Smyth's congregation thus moved to an area with a large Mennonite population, but a few years passed before the two groups are known to have contacted each other.

From the beginning, Smyth and his congregation had not been afraid to beat their own doctrinal trails away from the well-traveled paths of Separatism, and in Amsterdam this trend continued. For example, Smyth, as noted earlier, held the New Testament over the Old Testament, a view with "no obvious precedent for such a strong emphasis in Puritan and Separatist writings" (Coggins 55). Smyth held this opinion while still in England, before he would have had the opportunity for interaction with Mennonites in the Netherlands. It may have been a borrowing from the fog-shrouded English Anabaptists, or , as Goki Saito suggests in his abstract "An Investigation into the Relationship Between the Early English General Baptists and the Dutch Anabaptists" published in volume LIV, number 1 of The Mennonite Quarterly Review, Smyth may have arrived at his position through simple Bible study in this and other areas (67). Early in 1609, the issue of adult baptism arose, and a decision was
made against infant baptism and in favor of adult baptism. In accordance with these new convictions, Smyth first baptized himself, and then his congregation (Coggins 61-63). It is unknown how the subject was raised in the Smyth congregation (Coggins 61). Kliever suggests that Smyth came to the conviction through Bible study and the further development of existing Separatist ideas alone (317). Separatist ideas about the church certainly contributed to Smyth's acceptance of believers' baptism; indeed, Coggins says, "Although from the perspective of later historians the switch to believer's baptism was a watershed, to Smyth it was only a further step into a more purified Separatism" (63). It is not unreasonable, however, to assume that Smyth, living in the middle of a large community of Mennonites, was introduced to the doctrine through contact with Anabaptists and/or their teachings.

In any case, it is not certain that Smyth and his congregation had come to know any Mennonites by the time they adopted believers' baptism early in 1609. But later that year the congregation began to rent a building from a Mennonite named Jan Munter for use as housing and as a meeting place (Coggins 71-72). Smyth's writings from later that year include treatment of new topics such as Christology and the magistracy which are obviously of peculiarly Mennonite interest (Coggins 65). These writings indicate that Smyth was moving toward the acceptance of Mennonite positions on these issues, but had not yet fully arrived there (Coggins 75). By 1610, Smyth and his congregation adopted an essentially Mennonite/Arminian understanding of salvation and election, in contrast to their Calvinist roots in English Separatism (Coggins 133).

Early in 1610, the Smyth congregation applied to become members of the
Mennonite church and were eventually accepted. But before this application, a small faction under the leadership of Thomas Helwys left the congregation (Coggins 77-78). There were several issues at stake. One of Smyth's motives in seeking to join the Mennonites had been misgivings concerning the validity of the baptisms he had performed after believers' baptism had been instituted; Helwys contended that the baptisms were valid, and accused Smyth of reverting to legalism (Coggins 79-80). Helwys also disagreed with Smyth and the Mennonites on the issues of the Sabbath, nonresistance, and Christology (100-101). Helwys and his followers moved back to England to establish "the first Baptist church on English soil for whose origin there is historical proof" (Torbet 66).

The Baptist church in England grew, and Anabaptist influences continued. Helwys and all later Baptists advocated toleration and the separation of church and state (Coggins 130). Baptists of the mid seventeenth century used arguments for adult baptism almost identical to Menno Simons's (Good 253).
Coggins = John Smyth's Congregation by James R. Coggins
Good = Are Baptists Reformed? by Kenneth H. Good
Kliever = "General Baptist Origins: The Question of Anabaptist Influence," The Mennonite Quarterly Review Volume XXXVI Number 4, by Lonnie D. Kliever
Torbet = A History of the Baptists by Robert G. Torbet
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

Thank you, Peter. :D
i'll add some bold+underlines+spaces, etc., to help me understand as i study ..
PeterG wrote:Many years ago I wrote a research paper on the relationship between Anabaptism and the first English Baptists for a church history class. Here's the most relevant part, with apologies for the academese:
We finally reach a clear, well documented case of interaction between
Anabaptists and English Separatists with the Separatist church of John Smyth, former members of which eventually founded England's first Baptist church.

Smyth absorbed Puritan ideas at Cambridge while there from 1586 to 1598. Two books published in 1603 and 1605, respectively, reveal him as a mainstream Puritan, with no apparent sympathies for Separatism or Anabaptism.

However, in approximately 1606, Smyth began to pastor a Separatist congregation (Coggins 32-34).
This church suffered persecution at the hand of the government, and less than a year after its founding, nearly all of the congregation moved to Amsterdam in the Netherlands, a place known for an unusual degree of religious toleration (Coggins 43-44).

Smyth's congregation thus moved to an area with a large Mennonite population, but a few years passed before the two groups are known to have contacted each other.

From the beginning, Smyth and his congregation had not been afraid to beat their own doctrinal trails away from the well-traveled paths of Separatism, and in Amsterdam this trend continued.

For example, Smyth, as noted earlier, held the New Testament over the Old Testament, a view with "no obvious precedent for such a strong emphasis in Puritan and Separatist writings" (Coggins 55).

Smyth held this opinion while still in England, before he would have had the opportunity for interaction with Mennonites in the Netherlands.

It may have been a borrowing from the fog-shrouded English Anabaptists, or, as Goki Saito suggests in his abstract "An Investigation into the Relationship Between the Early English General Baptists and the Dutch Anabaptists" published in volume LIV, number 1 of The Mennonite Quarterly Review, Smyth may have arrived at his position through simple Bible study in this and other areas (67).

Early in 1609, the issue of adult baptism arose, and a decision was made against infant baptism and in favor of adult baptism. In accordance with these new convictions, Smyth first baptized himself, and then his congregation (Coggins 61-63).

It is unknown how the subject was raised in the Smyth congregation (Coggins 61).
Kliever suggests that Smyth came to the conviction through Bible study and the further development of existing Separatist ideas alone (317).

Separatist ideas about the church certainly contributed to Smyth's acceptance of believers' baptism; indeed, Coggins says, "Although from the perspective of later historians the switch to believer's baptism was a watershed, to Smyth it was only a further step into a more purified Separatism" (63).

It is not unreasonable, however, to assume that Smyth, living in the middle of a large community of Mennonites, was introduced to the doctrine through contact with Anabaptists and/or their teachings.

In any case, it is not certain that Smyth and his congregation had come to know any Mennonites by the time they adopted believers' baptism early in 1609.

But later that year the congregation began to rent a building from a Mennonite named Jan Munter for use as housing and as a meeting place (Coggins 71-72).

Smyth's writings from later that year include treatment of new topics such as Christology and the magistracy which are obviously of peculiarly Mennonite interest (Coggins 65).

These writings indicate that Smyth was moving toward the acceptance of Mennonite positions on these issues, but had not yet fully arrived there (Coggins 75).

By 1610, Smyth and his congregation adopted an essentially Mennonite/Arminian understanding of salvation and election, in contrast to their Calvinist roots in English Separatism (Coggins 133).

Early in 1610, the Smyth congregation applied to become members of the Mennonite church and were eventually accepted.

But before this application, a small faction under the leadership of Thomas Helwys left the congregation (Coggins 77-78). There were several issues at stake.

One of Smyth's motives in seeking to join the Mennonites had been misgivings concerning the validity of the baptisms he had performed after believers' baptism had been instituted;
Helwys contended that the baptisms were valid, and accused Smyth of reverting to legalism (Coggins 79-80).

Helwys also disagreed with Smyth and the Mennonites on the issues of the Sabbath, nonresistance, and Christology (100-101).

Helwys and his followers moved back to England to establish "the first Baptist church on English soil for whose origin there is historical proof" (Torbet 66).

The Baptist church in England grew, and Anabaptist influences continued.

Helwys and all later Baptists advocated toleration and the separation of church and state (Coggins 130).

Baptists of the mid seventeenth century used arguments for adult baptism almost identical to Menno Simons's (Good 253).
[wow.] :shock:

Coggins = John Smyth's Congregation by James R. Coggins
Good = Are Baptists Reformed? by Kenneth H. Good
Kliever = "General Baptist Origins: The Question of Anabaptist Influence," The Mennonite Quarterly Review Volume XXXVI Number 4, by Lonnie D. Kliever
Torbet = A History of the Baptists by Robert G. Torbet
so much content to think about. :)
reading about early Baptists, i came across this timeline, which is short on detail, but covers about 100 years, 1601-1704:
The Baptists: Christian History Timeline
http://www.christianitytoday.com/histor ... eline.html
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temporal1
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by temporal1 »

i so wish my parents were present to discuss. i "just know" they knew more than they ever spoke of, and, i've learned some things i believe would surprise them! esp my mother. she was always adamant we were "not Irish!" ..

i have found, on her father's side, a grandmother born (1687) into an Irish Quaker family, that grandfather was born (1682/3) in Wales, "probably a Welsh Quaker" (as written.) They were married in England, 1705. They must have married just before leaving, their first son was born in Virginia, 1706. Ireland. Wales. Quakers. hmm.

i do believe there are English on my mother's mother's side. no details.
i'm certain there's more. :lol:
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Bill Rushby
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Re: Quakers and Anabaptists

Post by Bill Rushby »

Josh wrote: "Quakers never recognised (sic) the principle of headship at all."

Josh, can you document this assertion? I doubt it!
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