Doctrine of Salvation?

[Neto]

I guess I will give my Old Testament view again, this time about faith and obedience. Both concepts, as Christians think of them, aren't in the Old Testament. The Old Testament emphasizes trust in God, and this is what is meant by faith. The word "believe" has the same meaning here. Like if I say "I believe in that guy", that means I trust him. Trust is close to faith, but not quite the same thing.

As for obedience, the word and concept are totally absent from the Old Testament. Where Old Testament translations say "obey" the word really means "listen". In the Old Testament, God asks us to listen and follow what God says. The difference from obedience is that your mental processing is a required part of the process. You must listen and then correctly interpret and apply. If you don't understand what was said, then you cannot apply it, so blind obedience isn't asked for.

My Old Testament view of "faith and works" is to translate it as "motivation and application". Without the right motivation, you will be able to properly apply biblical content to action.

Jesus often used the word 'listen' in the same sense. As parents, we often do the same, saying "Now listen to me...." we do not mean to have our words just enter their ears, register, then be dismissed. The meaning is 'obey'. (The word 'Hear' is also used in this way as well.)

[RZehr]

I guess I will give my Old Testament view again, this time about faith and obedience. Both concepts, as Christians think of them, aren't in the Old Testament. The Old Testament emphasizes trust in God, and this is what is meant by faith. The word "believe" has the same meaning here. Like if I say "I believe in that guy", that means I trust him. Trust is close to faith, but not quite the same thing.

As for obedience, the word and concept are totally absent from the Old Testament. Where Old Testament translations say "obey" the word really means "listen". In the Old Testament, God asks us to listen and follow what God says. The difference from obedience is that your mental processing is a required part of the process. You must listen and then correctly interpret and apply. If you don't understand what was said, then you cannot apply it, so blind obedience isn't asked for.

My Old Testament view of "faith and works" is to translate it as "motivation and application". Without the right motivation, you will be able to properly apply biblical content to action.

Jesus often used the word 'listen' in the same sense. As parents, we often do the same, saying "Now listen to me...." we do not mean to have our words just enter their ears, register, then be dismissed. The meaning is 'obey'. (The word 'Hear' is also used in this way as well.)

I too don't see what the important difference is between listen and obey, that Franklin is seeing.

[Wayne in Maine]

Seems some want to present the 'Good News of Jesus' in a way that could scare those listening away as the demands to live a righteous life are overwhelming to a non-believer to be saved. Not really 'good news' but rather 'bad news' to an unbeliever who does not think they could possibly live this way.

Really? Are you saying this from experience or conjecture? I know many “seekers” who are drawn to churches which help their members avoid the pitfalls of worldliness. I know many too who see this as legalism, but these are often the seed that fell among the thorns…

But clearly Evangelicals such as yourself see your mission as using your gospel and whatever techniques work to “save” as many as possible. I know this because I was an evangelical and even a trained counselor at youth meetings where I would attempt to pray through with those who raised their hand and came forward.

I have since learned (read the parable of the Sower) that God commissions us to scatter seed, “which is the good news of the Kingdom”, some of which will fall on good ground. We cannot scatter a different seed thinking by our results that we have won souls, we probably in fact have lost those who would bear fruit.

Others believe we present the 'Good News of Jesus', the gospel, in what Paul called 'of first importance' in 1 Cor 15:1-4 as the gospel that saves us

Oh! You love that verse. Read the whole thing in context sometime!

and when believed in one's heart the Holy Spirit enters the seeker to have a new desire to live a life of discipleship. I believe in the latter approach as until the Holy Spirit resides in a person they cannot see the demands of discipleship are not burdensome when the Holy Spirit is in us to enable us to live out this discipleship.

Well I don’t believe that in that “second work of grace” whet the Holy Spirit fills us at a later time ( with speaking in tongues as a sign in some churches). I believe the Holy Spirit b is given to the committed follower of Jesus to empower him or her to obedience and endurance.

[Sudsy]

Seems some want to present the 'Good News of Jesus' in a way that could scare those listening away as the demands to live a righteous life are overwhelming to a non-believer to be saved. Not really 'good news' but rather 'bad news' to an unbeliever who does not think they could possibly live this way.

Really? Are you saying this from experience or conjecture? I know many “seekers” who are drawn to churches which help their members avoid the pitfalls of worldliness. I know many too who see this as legalism, but these are often the seed that fell among the thorns…

What I am referring to is the unsaved who look on being a Christ follower as having to give up certain things they currently enjoy doing. And I don't believe this would be such a 'turn off' if they could see more of the abundant life being lived by we professing Christians. When we are obviously fighting with other believers; anxious about things in this world; no sign of that 'unspeakable joy'; lacking compassion and our lives do not reflect much fruit of the Spirit, what would be the attraction to becoming a Christian ? Some have used fear tactics to threaten people with endless torment in hell fire. I don't see that used by the NT early church even though my father became a street preaching evangelist.

What attracted my father, for example, was the change in life he saw in my mother. The peace and joy and other fruit of the Spirit in her character. He thought Christianity was a joke before that as some of his friends were professing Christians and lived like he did. Finally, curiousity ( I believe the Holy Spirit working) got him to look into this closer and upon hearing the Gospel preached, he repented of his sin and became a new creation. Radical changes then resulted in his life as the Holy Spirit was now living in him. (and I'm not talking about speaking in tongues).

And from my experience listening to testimonies of new converts it was often the initial changes they saw that happened to a friend or relative and their early excitement of this new life that got their attention. I especially recall how this exploded in the little Baptist church I was part of and every week we saw new converts coming to become Christ followers. And some were there to be with their friends and the seed 'fell among thorns', did not take in their life. But for many it became a new life and resulted in a number going into full time ministry.

So, I believe the unsaved are spiritually blind as scripture says until the light of the Gospel penetrates this blindness and God uses various means to uncover this blindness.

But clearly Evangelicals such as yourself see your mission as using your gospel and whatever techniques work to “save” as many as possible. I know this because I was an evangelical and even a trained counselor at youth meetings where I would attempt to pray through with those who raised their hand and came forward.

I have since learned (read the parable of the Sower) that God commissions us to scatter seed, “which is the good news of the Kingdom”, some of which will fall on good ground. We cannot scatter a different seed thinking by our results that we have won souls, we probably in fact have lost those who would bear fruit.

A farmer does not scatter seed and not expect to see a crop. Actually he expects to see that most of the seed will produce a crop. I view this seed scattering as much more, than presenting the Gospel using what is of first importance (but needs to include that). The abundant life in Christ reflected in believers is part of what makes good seed, good seed. The various means of presenting the Gospel message must be part of this seed. Romans 10:14-15 puts it this way -

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

So are we not all 'sent' as the Great Commission says ? Or are we 'stay at home' Christians and 'if someone wants to know about us, they know where we hang out' ? To me, the latter really shows a lack of compassion and does not follow how Jesus lived. And I confess I, too, as perhaps most professing Christians, fall short in this area. My compassion for the lost needs renewing.

Others believe we present the 'Good News of Jesus', the gospel, in what Paul called 'of first importance' in 1 Cor 15:1-4 as the gospel that saves us

Oh! You love that verse. Read the whole thing in context sometime!

I will. I do think if Paul said this is of first importance then we should think of it that way. My understanding is that without this message, the Gospel is not the one Paul preached and that Paul says 'saves us'. One can become as unworldly as they possibly can but our salvation is based on a belief, a belief that changes us and gives us a new desire to please God. The belief is required first and without it, we just have a religion without God.

and when believed in one's heart the Holy Spirit enters the seeker to have a new desire to live a life of discipleship. I believe in the latter approach as until the Holy Spirit resides in a person they cannot see the demands of discipleship are not burdensome when the Holy Spirit is in us to enable us to live out this discipleship.

Well I don’t believe that in that “second work of grace” whet the Holy Spirit fills us at a later time ( with speaking in tongues as a sign in some churches). I believe the Holy Spirit b is given to the committed follower of Jesus to empower him or her to obedience and endurance.

I'm not referring to any “second work of grace” but rather being born again when the Holy Spirit comes to live in a person. Filling of the Spirit is an on-going need for the believer to move forward in their walk with God. Part of being obedient is to obey being on-goingly filled with the Holy Spirit. Some evidence of this will be the fruit of the Spirit and other evidences are found in the text on filling - Eph 5:19-20

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to reckless indiscretion. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your hearts to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

One more thing - it is concerning to me how there is not more expectation of a change life that follows 'new converts'. And like the sowing of seed, I do believe the seed at times does not take because a seed must die first to come alive. This is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit to bring about new life. It is also concerning that what is considered by some to be new life has more to do with outward appearance than inner change. If inner change has not occurred than the seed is still dead. Jesus really got after the Pharisees over their focus on outward appearances when they lacked inner change of heart. The inner heart change will produce changes in appearance, for sure, although I question those changes that stretch scriptures and become a main identification of a believer.

Well, I appreciate you sharing your experiences and welcome other thoughts on this.