Doctrine of Salvation?

[ohio jones]

As the early Dutch Baptism-Minded often said when challenged in their beliefs, "Demonstrate my error from the Scripture, and I will repent, and believe it."

They weren't the only ones to say this, of course. For all the flak Martin Luther gets around here (mostly deserved, but sometimes a bit caricatured), he did make a very similar statement at the Diet of Worms:

I implore you by the mercies of God to prove to me by the writings of the prophets and apostles that I am in error. As soon as I shall be convinced, I will instantly retract all my errors, and will myself be the first to seize my writings, and commit them to the flames.

[Sudsy]

Jesus first used the term "born again" - 'Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Then He went on to explain this term to Nicodemus who was confused by the term - John 3.

Jesus used the term born again in a very specific way. I’m not sure that being born of the Spirit is actually within our control. I wold link the statement you cite with someone discovering that treasure in a field,?or pearl of great price. Only those whom the Spirit Himself has give a spiritual birth will see so and know it’s value. It’s nothing that one can obtain from a prayer on a tract or an emotional catharsis at revival meeting.

I don't think you mean it as such but it reads to me like Calvinism.

I agree that the spiritual birth comes via the Holy Spirit but it takes co-operation of the recipient. A gift means nothing if it is not received. We don't use means of prayer, tracts, preaching or anything els and believe this is what saves them. They are but means to point people to Christ and God uses them in His saving. Romans 10:13 and the Great Commission speaks of a believer's role in evangelism. Evangelism is us partnering with God in the Salvation of the lost. Many have been saved through using the means of a Gospel tract that was just handed to them or they found someone had thrown away.

When one has personally witnessed seeing the saving power of God in the worst of sinners, like my parents, they see how God has used various means to draw them to Himself. Sadly, some have lived so far removed from the world, that they have not seen these miraculous conversions and their churches are missing out on the great blessings this brings.

When it comes to obedience I think it is very selective in most Anabaptist churches. We all are drawing the line and saying this was just said to that audience and this was to all believers. The Great Commission is one of these. If total obedience is required to be saved, then none of us qualify. Christ lived total obedience to the Father and it is on His perfect obedience I rest my salvation. However, to live the abundant life He provided being obedient to the Holy Spirit's guidance is our path to this victorious life.

[joshuabgood]

As the early Dutch Baptism-Minded often said when challenged in their beliefs, "Demonstrate my error from the Scripture, and I will repent, and believe it."

They weren't the only ones to say this, of course. For all the flak Martin Luther gets around here (mostly deserved, but sometimes a bit caricatured), he did make a very similar statement at the Diet of Worms:

I implore you by the mercies of God to prove to me by the writings of the prophets and apostles that I am in error. As soon as I shall be convinced, I will instantly retract all my errors, and will myself be the first to seize my writings, and commit them to the flames.

Of course some parts of the Bible he liked and others not so much...He liked scripture insofar as it *revealed* to him what he already believed to be true.

“We should throw the epistle of James out of this school, for it doesn’t amount to much. It contains not a syllable about Christ. Not once does it mention Christ, except at the beginning. I maintain that some Jew wrote it who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any. Since he heard that Christians place great weight on faith in Christ, he thought, ‘Wait a moment! I’ll oppose them and urge works alone.’ This he did.”

And evidently he missed the part about neither "Greek nor Jew."

And the part you are not saved by faith only but also by works.

[Wayne in Maine]

When it comes to obedience I think it is very selective in most Anabaptist churches. We all are drawing the line and saying this was just said to that audience and this was to all believers. The Great Commission is one of these. If total obedience is required to be saved, then none of us qualify. Christ lived total obedience to the Father and it is on His perfect obedience I rest my salvation. However, to live the abundant life He provided being obedient to the Holy Spirit's guidance is our path to this victorious life.

Well remember brother Sudsy, when you point an accusing finger at someone there are three pointing back at you. I am one of the biggest critics on this board of Ethnic Mennonites, Amish an Hutterites who think they are fulfilling the great commission by “filling their quiver” and training them in the way they should go. I’m working on that and there are many breaking out to not preach the salvation gospel, but the authentic Hood News of Jesus.

This too is part of living as a disciple of Jesus. We learn be snd grow.

[Josh]

Instead of thinking as "total obedience required to be saved"...

... why not think about "when I get saved, I can finally be totally obedient". That's the power of Christ and of being born again.

[Sudsy]

When it comes to obedience I think it is very selective in most Anabaptist churches. We all are drawing the line and saying this was just said to that audience and this was to all believers. The Great Commission is one of these. If total obedience is required to be saved, then none of us qualify. Christ lived total obedience to the Father and it is on His perfect obedience I rest my salvation. However, to live the abundant life He provided being obedient to the Holy Spirit's guidance is our path to this victorious life.

Well remember brother Sudsy, when you point an accusing finger at someone there are three pointing back at you. I am one of the biggest critics on this board of Ethnic Mennonites, Amish an Hutterites who think they are fulfilling the great commission by “filling their quiver” and training them in the way they should go. I’m working on that and there are many breaking out to not preach the salvation gospel, but the authentic Hood News of Jesus.

This too is part of living as a disciple of Jesus. We learn be snd grow.

Agree and one can most assuredly find faults in me and my beliefs. We are a work-in-process. I read this in an Anabaptist article - 'While our convictions about a life of discipleship are important, at times we are so determined not to ever get into the “cheap grace” ditch that we remain in the gully on the other side of the road: works righteousness.'

Seems some want to present the 'Good News of Jesus' in a way that could scare those listening away as the demands to live a righteous life are overwhelming to a non-believer to be saved. Not really 'good news' but rather 'bad news' to an unbeliever who does not think they could possibly live this way.

Others believe we present the 'Good News of Jesus', the gospel, in what Paul called 'of first importance' in 1 Cor 15:1-4 as the gospel that saves us and when believed in one's heart the Holy Spirit enters the seeker to have a new desire to live a life of discipleship. I believe in the latter approach as until the Holy Spirit resides in a person they cannot see the demands of discipleship are not burdensome when the Holy Spirit is in us to enable us to live out this discipleship.

Anyway, I always like to talk about such things as they are eternal life issues and the most important of all issues.

[RZehr]

Instead of thinking as "total obedience required to be saved"...

... why not think about "when I get saved, I can finally be totally obedient". That's the power of Christ and of being born again.

Wow. Thats a good succinct thought.

[Sudsy]

Instead of thinking as "total obedience required to be saved"...

... why not think about "when I get saved, I can finally be totally obedient". That's the power of Christ and of being born again.

But we can't be totally obedient, only Jesus was totally obedient. Christ in us in the power of the Holy Spirit enables us to learn and become obedient but I personally do not believe in 'entire sanctification' to reach a state of sinless perfection in practise. We are saints positionally but progressively should grow in sanctification. Our desire should be to be as obedient as possible.

[Neto]

Instead of thinking as "total obedience required to be saved"...

... why not think about "when I get saved, I can finally be totally obedient". That's the power of Christ and of being born again.

But we can't be totally obedient, only Jesus was totally obedient. Christ in us in the power of the Holy Spirit enables us to learn and become obedient but I personally do not believe in 'entire sanctification' to reach a state of sinless perfection in practise. We are saints positionally but progressively should grow in sanctification. Our desire should be to be as obedient as possible.

The question of whether we CAN be totally obedient, or if we are just sometimes unwilling, and that is why we don't, is probably a completely new topic. But what our former bishop always says is to "Keep short accounts with sin." But I will venture into that other topic long enough to say that since the Holy Spirit is with us, in us, we probably do have the power to "be totally obedient", at least in terms of intentional sin. I think that sometimes we only later realize that we have done something wrong, especially in relationships. Then there is the opportunity to exercise righteousness by confessing it, and not being evasive if confronted about it. On the other side (of the question of sinless perfection now) is the Scripture which says that "when we see [Christ] we will be like him, because we will see him as he is." I don't think this is only referring to our transformed "physical" bodies, but rather to our whole selves. (Of course I do not believe in the "tri-part" man anyway, so it's no big deal for me to say this here.)

[Franklin]

I guess I will give my Old Testament view again, this time about faith and obedience. Both concepts, as Christians think of them, aren't in the Old Testament. The Old Testament emphasizes trust in God, and this is what is meant by faith. The word "believe" has the same meaning here. Like if I say "I believe in that guy", that means I trust him. Trust is close to faith, but not quite the same thing.

As for obedience, the word and concept are totally absent from the Old Testament. Where Old Testament translations say "obey" the word really means "listen". In the Old Testament, God asks us to listen and follow what God says. The difference from obedience is that your mental processing is a required part of the process. You must listen and then correctly interpret and apply. If you don't understand what was said, then you cannot apply it, so blind obedience isn't asked for.

My Old Testament view of "faith and works" is to translate it as "motivation and application". Without the right motivation, you will be able to properly apply biblical content to action.