Government Rabbit Trail

[Jess77]

My back and forth post with Josh opened a new rabbit trail in my mind so I am moving it here.

Every country has laws against spying, sedition, and foreign agents operating covertly. It should be obvious that doing such things is intrinsically immoral.

Can a government be moral/amoral? If the government is made up of the people in power, then one could reason that the government is based on the morals of the people in charge. How does that connect with Anabaptist theology?

As I understand it, Anabaptists believe that the Bible teaches that Christians are not to be a part of the government. In a world where the government is made up of a monarchy or a dictatorship, the morality of the government is clear. When the US was formed, it was unique in its structure. One could argue that the government was formed to reflect that of a church, with a heiarchy structure including the leader (pastor, priest or Bishop), followed by the rule makers who represent the people (Deacons or Elders). As a republic, the people are represented in each district (church) by a nominated individual who is charged to represent their interests. This is similar to the way Moses and later the early church began to create structure within the church body. The leader is kept in check from errant practice by the elders and ultimately, the body. In a church structure, if the leader brings in heresy or starts supporting a practice the body considers not scriptural, the body can either remove the leader, or the church will split forming another, slightly different body of like-minded believers. We see something similar with the US government through the practice of Censure and Impeachment, all the way up to a complete dissolution and rebuilding of government. Thankfully, the US has not seen the latter very often in the past 200+ years.

In short, the body of the church holds the leadership accountable. They help in making decisions about the church, keeping it on solid, Biblically moral footing. In a Republic the same is true. However, what happens to the moral footing of a Republic when those who are responsible for keeping the morality of it in check decide not to participate? Without a moral guide bounded on Christ and the Bible, who is left to guide the government except those without a Biblically founded moral compass? And without that moral compass, who is there to keep all manner of evil from slipping in and taking control?

[Josh]

Nothing at all, which is why we are witnessing the decline of the Empire. God will eventually see fit to tear down every kingdom where the kings and others in authority do not give God the glory. "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people."

One of the reasons I said covert intelligence is intrinsically immoral is because it involves blatant lying for one's own personal gain, along with an abstract idea of "I am lying but in order to do good for 'my country'." Obviously, such behaviour goes against the way God wants his people to live, and indeed the laws laid down for all human beings since the times of Adam and Noah.

[temporal1]

Josh:
Nothing at all, which is why we are witnessing the decline of the Empire. God will eventually see fit to tear down every kingdom where the kings and others in authority do not give God the glory. "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people."

The disturbing and fascinating thing about the U.S. is how so many are racing to destroy what they freely inherited.
Historically, it’s thought that evil conquerers overwhelm good people. Or God righteously destroys. Not now. Good people are convinced they must be conquered, and proudly choose evil.

Not sure what to make of it. Just a puzzled observor.
“Democracy doesn’t die” ..
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3919

[Josh]

Josh:
Nothing at all, which is why we are witnessing the decline of the Empire. God will eventually see fit to tear down every kingdom where the kings and others in authority do not give God the glory. "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people."

The disturbing and fascinating thing about the U.S. is how so many are racing to destroy what they freely inherited.
Historically, it’s thought that evil conquerers overwhelm good people. Or God righteously destroys. Not now. Good people are convinced they must be conquered, and proudly choose evil.

Not sure what to make of it. Just a puzzled observor.
“Democracy doesn’t die” ..
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3919

Whilst America was founded on some godly principles, I would hesitate to say that something “good” is being destroyed.

America’s history includes some rather serious problems like institutional chattel slavery.

[Bootstrap]

As I understand it, Anabaptists believe that the Bible teaches that Christians are not to be a part of the government. In a world where the government is made up of a monarchy or a dictatorship, the morality of the government is clear. When the US was formed, it was unique in its structure. One could argue that the government was formed to reflect that of a church, with a hierarchy structure including the leader (pastor, priest or Bishop), followed by the rule makers who represent the people (Deacons or Elders). As a republic, the people are represented in each district (church) by a nominated individual who is charged to represent their interests. This is similar to the way Moses and later the early church began to create structure within the church body. The leader is kept in check from errant practice by the elders and ultimately, the body. In a church structure, if the leader brings in heresy or starts supporting a practice the body considers not scriptural, the body can either remove the leader, or the church will split forming another, slightly different body of like-minded believers. We see something similar with the US government through the practice of Censure and Impeachment, all the way up to a complete dissolution and rebuilding of government. Thankfully, the US has not seen the latter very often in the past 200+ years.

In short, the body of the church holds the leadership accountable. They help in making decisions about the church, keeping it on solid, Biblically moral footing. In a Republic the same is true. However, what happens to the moral footing of a Republic when those who are responsible for keeping the morality of it in check decide not to participate? Without a moral guide bounded on Christ and the Bible, who is left to guide the government except those without a Biblically founded moral compass? And without that moral compass, who is there to keep all manner of evil from slipping in and taking control?

This is something I have also wrestled with, from a slightly different perspective. I would frame it slightly differently, though - I think true Christians are still a distinct minority in America, so in a democratic republic like America, we have a chance to contribute our moral values to the discussion, but the moral values of others also affect policy and education and law. In some ways, it's not terribly different from the old days when we could try to influence Caesar, but we certainly were not Caesar.

Also, the structure you describe under Moses is the structure that we saw in the Book of Judges. Here's where it was set up:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=csb

Unfortunately, that's the same structure we see in the Book of Judges. Yes, it was God-ordained, but that period was far from perfect. Just like our government today.

I still think that it is good for Christians to vote, and I do vote. But I also think the biggest "government rabbit trail" is this: Christians are often losing the ability to point back to Jesus and what he said and did. When we think about any moral issue, our thinking is often framed primarily by the current political controversies in our government, and often aligned with political tribes. And the fervor with which we discuss these things is often much greater than the fervor with which we discuss the things the Bible calls us to.

Vanilla ice cream and manure.

[Gene]

[/quote]

Whilst America was founded on some godly principles, I would hesitate to say that something “good” is being destroyed.

America’s history includes some rather serious problems like institutional chattel slavery.
[/quote]

Have you possibly neglected to examine other systems and societies prior to forming your position on the goodness of America and western culture generally? Point out, as a defense for your hesitancy, someone who did it better.

[Josh]

Whilst America was founded on some godly principles, I would hesitate to say that something “good” is being destroyed.

America’s history includes some rather serious problems like institutional chattel slavery.
[/quote]

Have you possibly neglected to examine other systems and societies prior to forming your position on the goodness of America and western culture generally? Point out, as a defense for your hesitancy, someone who did it better.
[/quote]

I would point to specific states and regions of America as exemplars of excellent government, excellent people, low violence, and respect for one another (along with a high degree of religiosity amongst the people). For example, the Sacramento Valley of California, or the town of Russia, Ohio, or (dare I say this) Holmes County, Ohio.

“America” as a whole includes quite a few highly questionable things, like World War I - a war of the west, by the west, against the west.

[Gene]

Josh, in evaluating a society, or in this case a nation, it is not particularly useful to compare it to some idealized vision of what, in hindsight, we think it ought to have been. Slavery was certainly not our idea, nor was it historically racist, but was the strong taking from the weak, regardless of race. It existed for thousands of years before Jefferson ever wrote his most famous treatise.

WW 1 clearly was not an event that originated in this country, and it can be argued endlessly whether we should entered Europe's family squabble, but I don't understand the usage of that war to denigrate this country. Sure there were and are negatives in every human endeavor, and we are no exception. But America, and the founding ideas, are good.

[Josh]

Josh, in evaluating a society, or in this case a nation, it is not particularly useful to compare it to some idealized vision of what, in hindsight, we think it ought to have been. Slavery was certainly not our idea, nor was it historically racist, but was the strong taking from the weak, regardless of race. It existed for thousands of years before Jefferson ever wrote his most famous treatise.

WW 1 clearly was not an event that originated in this country, and it can be argued endlessly whether we should entered Europe's family squabble, but I don't understand the usage of that war to denigrate this country. Sure there were and are negatives in every human endeavor, and we are no exception. But America, and the founding ideas, are good.

I suppose I don’t see a lot of utility in evaluating “America” or “the West” as a whole of either being good or bad; (imagine trying to critique “the East” as either good or bad). I like to judge things by their fruits, and the West has been highly disappointed during my lifetime.

I suppose I do have an ideal that every culture needs to have a remnant - a “peculiar people” that “come out from among them” and “are separate”.

[Gene]

What fruit is disappointing? Freedom? Economic prosperity for a broader slice of the populace than ever in history? Advances in technology that enable the common Man to live better than royalty did for much of the past? Improvements in health care? Increased longevity? Greater availability and reduced cost for food? When would you rather live? Face it; there has never in the history of man been amore successful people that those of European descent and much of that success is the result of the American experiment.