Proper expectations on unbelievers

[Martin]

Milk skirts would work.

What is a milk skirt?

Gardening isn't going to be a day at the beach.

How does this relate to the above.

Your group is ambitious and I wish you a fruitful season.

What do you know about us?

A skirt worn by woman while milking the cows or doing other dirty work like gardening. Milk skirts are similar to coveralls. Both protect the clothing underneath. And they are modest.

"How does this relate to the above." Sorry, but my thinking is at times disjunct. But have you heard of "Slip, slap slop"? Check it out on Wikipedia. I've used "Slip, slap, slop" with my employees and maybe people would clothe better with this program.

"What do you know about us?" "Us" as in you and your family or your church?

[Martin]

No shirt, no shoes, no seeding?

Plain people often go barefoot.

Interesting how we would have a collective panic attack over someone who is "topless" yet expect to be tolerated being barefoot.

Many people who aren't plain think it is a sign of being underdressed to be barefoot in public. Some groups like Church of God Restoration actually teach that being barefoot is seductive/immodest. In some cultures it indeed is.

In any case, I was talking about:

1. Someone expects his business partner's wife to have her hair up if she comes by to see him during lunch hours.

2. Our society doesn't associate having hair up with modesty.

3. There is no biblical commandment or admonishment for a woman to keep her hair up.

4. Plain people really think women should wear their hair up. They don't feel the same about covering one's feet, so this is clearly just a cultural application of modesty.

5. I am wondering how expecting a woman to have her hair up helps spread the message of the gospel.

So on point 1. My grandfather did not allow his next-door tenant's children to show up on the premises wearing shorts. My mom, still doesn't like it when men wear shorts. It seems rather overdrawn to me, but maybe I've grown accustomed to immodesty.

The hair-up thing is new for me. Personally, I like when women wear dresses, but I don't impose this on my female employees.

[Josh]

Perhaps it would make things clearer if I asked how we would deal with someone who expected his business partner's wife to drive a black car if she stops by over lunch break.

[Sudsy]

I like the concept of faith based community gardens and know of one in a city close to us. Myself, I would not be concerned over what people wear to participate.

And if society got to the point where women showed up topless would you do anything then? We are almost there now. Had some of these come to the garden last year.

If people came naked, as they probably have in foreign missionary settings, I wouldn't do anything to tell them how to dress as this is not the change they need. God will give us the power to control our fleshly attractions and give us His interest in their souls. Those who do evangelistic work on beaches and parks run into skimpy dressed people all the time. Been there, done that. When we get out where sinner's habit we experience the grace and enabling power of God to rise above temptation. We may struggle with this at first but that is just part of our spiritual development to learn how to rely on the Spirit's enabling power that works in us.

[Neto]

I like the concept of faith based community gardens and know of one in a city close to us. Myself, I would not be concerned over what people wear to participate.

And if society got to the point where women showed up topless would you do anything then? We are almost there now. Had some of these come to the garden last year.

If people came naked, as they probably have in foreign missionary settings, I wouldn't do anything to tell them how to dress as this is not the change they need. God will give us the power to control our fleshly attractions and give us His interest in their souls. Those who do evangelistic work on beaches and parks run into skimpy dressed people all the time. Been there, done that. When we get out where sinner's habit we experience the grace and enabling power of God to rise above temptation. We may struggle with this at first but that is just part of our spiritual development to learn how to rely on the Spirit's enabling power that works in us.

I think that a corporation can obviously have dress standards. But in a partnership, those issues should have been handled at the beginning. Public schools commonly have some type of dress standard as well, and government offices often have dress standards, not only for their workers, but for people who want to do business there as well. At least in Brazil they did. You could not receive service at the Federal Police (for immigration processes, etc) wearing shorts, or sandals. I cannot recall for sure about tee shirts, but maybe that was forbidden as well.

[Ernie]

2. Our society doesn't associate having hair up with modesty.

At one time, the bulk of our society would have thought that women should either have their hair up or covered in public in order to be modest. Long flowing hair was ok in family and in lady friend settings but not in public.

I'm not saying by this that business partners today should expect women to adopt this practice when they show up over lunch time at the place of business, but just trying to show that our American collective conscience on this matter has changed.

4. Plain people really think women should wear their hair up. They don't feel the same about covering one's feet, so this is clearly just a cultural application of modesty.

Possibly, however people did not cover their feet in the Bible times, married women did veil their heads, and there is no indication that this was out of order.

5. I am wondering how expecting a woman to have her hair up helps spread the message of the gospel.

The assumption of plain people (and many Christians in the Mid East and eastern Europe) is that women should cover their hair or hide their glory while in public and that there is value in doing so and that there are blessings associated with making this a part of one's culture. The underlying assumption is that this can (not will) contribute to good men / women relationships in a society over multiple generations.
The same could be said for living in community, giving children a Christian education, being able to sing beautiful songs, etc. It takes a long time to build solid stable culture and some things do not show their benefits immediately. Those who are looking for immediate results or looking for a scripture verse for every thing they do are going to miss a lot of things that only come with the development of a Christian worldview.

For the record, I do not say this to say that the way your acquaintance handled the long hair thing was a good way of handling it.

[Sudsy]

I think that a corporation can obviously have dress standards. But in a partnership, those issues should have been handled at the beginning. Public schools commonly have some type of dress standard as well, and government offices often have dress standards, not only for their workers, but for people who want to do business there as well. At least in Brazil they did. You could not receive service at the Federal Police (for immigration processes, etc) wearing shorts, or sandals. I cannot recall for sure about tee shirts, but maybe that was forbidden as well.

Yes, there certainly are dress standards, even on most golf courses. My question is how much are we willing to tolerate in non-believers appearance to open the door to possible sharing of the Gospel ? What if a dress requirement to work in a community garden was set that no woman can wear pants or go sleeveless and this caused many non-churched women to not participate, would this be worth it ? Personally, I don't think so.

[Josh]

At one time, men were expected to wear sport coats and ties in most settings. Yet plain people have refused to do this or its equivalent for a long time.

[Once Again]

It's a sin for a woman to wear her hair down? I've never heard that taught before. The only commands that I've heard in regard to women's hair is: long, covered during prayer and prophecy, not braided.

[RZehr]

The plain business man ought to dissolve the partnership as soon as possible, plain and simple. If they are disagreeing on this issue, there is going to be a lot more issues that they will disagree on soon.
If the lady was an employee, then I think he is in his place to say what he expects his employees to wear, and if they don't want to, then the employee could find a different job. In this case, since she can't find a different job, I think he should find a different job.

My sister stopped being plain, and didn't always dress modestly. But she worked in at a Plain cabinet shop office in Holmes county. They required her to dress in a dress and wear a covering on the job.
Personally, I'm not there. Unless someone was working toward becoming a member, I would discourage them from identifying as a Plain Mennonite. So I wouldn't ask an unbelieving employee to wear a Mennonite homemade cape dress and covering, but not because of some "freedom of choice" of clothing in the workplace idea. It would be because I wouldn't want her representing herself as a Plain Mennonite when she is not, for her good, for my good, and for the customers good.

As far as the community garden goes, I would just leave the dress standards alone unless until an actual problem comes up.
If the garden is primarily for your personal use, then it is an extension of your home, and I would tend to be more restrictive.
If the garden in primarily to build relationships with people that come there to garden, I wouldn’t start off with restrictions. If you are successful in building relationships with an improperly dressed person, maybe you can use that as a teaching moment on the issue of clothes.
But I would not feel bad about banning a stiff-necked troublemaker from the project. And I wouldn’t be against a dress code either. I just probably wouldn’t start out with one.