Proper expectations on unbelievers

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Ernie »

Once Again wrote:It's a sin for a woman to wear her hair down? I've never heard that taught before. The only commands that I've heard in regard to women's hair is: long, covered during prayer and prophecy, not braided.
I don't know of anyone who would say that it is a sin for any woman in the world to wear her hair down, just like I don't know of anyone who say that it is sin for any woman in the world to wear sleeves that are not wrist length or elbow length. Conservative Anabaptists don't think this way.
However...
They would believe that anything like this could become sin if...
1. the church has determined that a certain practice is helpful for promoting Godly values and a member is not willing to submit to the brotherhood in this matter even if they agreed to do submit when they joined the church
2. if the Spirit of God is calling them to adopt this practice and the person is continually unwilling to hear and respond (to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin)

They would also believe that if there is a practice that enhances Godly living in some way, that practice is good for everybody, in that it would add valued to that person's character or that person's society.
If everything conservative Anabaptists (or anybody else for that matter) encourage others to do has to be framed as "sin" vs. "not sin", it is a lost cause. Some things are good, some things are better, and some things are best and whether or not it is sin isn't really the main question.
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ohio jones
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by ohio jones »

Ernie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
Ernie wrote:As a sideline, we are starting a community garden for people we get to know, and we are thinking of having a minimum dress standard to be involved in the community garden. What would you think is reasonable for a plain person to ask of non-plain people? Is it possible that what was reasonable when I was a child 30 years ago is no longer reasonable?
No shirt, no shoes, no seeding?
Plain people often go barefoot.
If we expect others to respect our standards, should we be able to respect theirs as well?
Josh wrote:At one time, men were expected to wear sport coats and ties in most settings.
That's what my (non-Menno) grandpa often wore to work in his garden. :lol:
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Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

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RZehr wrote:As far as the community garden goes, I would just leave the dress standards alone unless until an actual problem comes up.
If the garden is primarily for your personal use, then it is an extension of your home, and I would tend to be more restrictive.
If the garden in primarily to build relationships with people that come there to garden, I wouldn’t start off with restrictions. If you are successful in building relationships with an improperly dressed person, maybe you can use that as a teaching moment on the issue of clothes.
But I would not feel bad about banning a stiff-necked troublemaker from the project. And I wouldn’t be against a dress code either. I just probably wouldn’t start out with one.
So it is our garden, next to our house. Sometimes we invite people to be involved. Sometimes people ask if they can be involved. We already have had "problems come up".

In light of this added information, would you answer differently?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Ernie »

ohio jones wrote:
Ernie wrote:
ohio jones wrote: No shirt, no shoes, no seeding?
Plain people often go barefoot.
If we expect others to respect our standards, should we be able to respect theirs as well?
Sure. But not sure what you are thinking of. Can you give some examples?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Martin
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

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Ernie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
Ernie wrote: Plain people often go barefoot.
If we expect others to respect our standards, should we be able to respect theirs as well?
Sure. But not sure what you are thinking of. Can you give some examples?
I'm interested in examples as well.

Also, Josh, are you saying there are no proper expectations for worldly people? The world unashamedly shows off their bodies and tattoos and I've encountered next thing to walking porn at my business. What am I to do?
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Neto
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:
Neto wrote: I think that a corporation can obviously have dress standards. But in a partnership, those issues should have been handled at the beginning. Public schools commonly have some type of dress standard as well, and government offices often have dress standards, not only for their workers, but for people who want to do business there as well. At least in Brazil they did. You could not receive service at the Federal Police (for immigration processes, etc) wearing shorts, or sandals. I cannot recall for sure about tee shirts, but maybe that was forbidden as well.
Yes, there certainly are dress standards, even on most golf courses. My question is how much are we willing to tolerate in non-believers appearance to open the door to possible sharing of the Gospel ? What if a dress requirement to work in a community garden was set that no woman can wear pants or go sleeveless and this caused many non-churched women to not participate, would this be worth it ? Personally, I don't think so.
I can only say that while most of the younger women in the tribe did not go topless while we were around, some of the old ladies did. One older woman didn't exercise the normal cultural (theirs, not ours) restraint about coming into the back part of someone else's house. So she would come in (topless) and go right on back into our bedroom area. (No one else ever did, except once when I was there alone, and was very sick. When one of the men came to the front of the house to ask how I was, I called for him to come in, to help me with something.) We never said anything about skirt length, etc, but one of the ladies told my wife that her husband was asking (telling?) her to wear longer dresses, and she did. If modesty is a part of God's plan, and a part of the universal morality that is a part of being created in his image, then the new birth will be followed by changes in those areas. (And I do believe that it is.)
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ohio jones
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by ohio jones »

Ernie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:If we expect others to respect our standards, should we be able to respect theirs as well?
Sure. But not sure what you are thinking of. Can you give some examples?
The examples would be the ones just mentioned above: Wearing shoes when others do. Wearing formal clothes when others do.
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Sudsy
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

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Isn't part of sharing in the sufferings of Christ, living amongst a world of sinners and not trying to change it to be more comfortable to our convictions as believers ? Ambassadors don't go to a country and insist it conform to the practises of their home country. Jesus was without sin, yet He ate and drank with sinners. He brought them living water and demonstrated what Kingdom living is about. Loving those whom religious leaders were looking down upon for how they lived. I'm probably having trouble understanding some Anabaptist perspectives here as it is quite different from the Anabaptist church I attend and how they respond to unbelievers ways.
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Sudsy
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

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Neto wrote:If modesty is a part of God's plan, and a part of the universal morality that is a part of being created in his image, then the new birth will be followed by changes in those areas. (And I do believe that it is.)
I agree that the new birth will result in modest apparel but we do have quite a range in Christianity of what is modest and what is not. I'm not for imposed modest apparel as I believe spiritual growth in various areas should be allowed to develop as the individual grows in their relationship with God. Others see this differently within Anabaptism.

Neto, I have always enjoyed your sharing of your experiences in circumstances many of us will never live in. Thankyou and keep sharing.
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Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

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Sudsy wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I like the concept of faith based community gardens and know of one in a city close to us. Myself, I would not be concerned over what people wear to participate.
And if society got to the point where women showed up topless would you do anything then? We are almost there now. Had some of these come to the garden last year.
If people came naked, as they probably have in foreign missionary settings, I wouldn't do anything to tell them how to dress as this is not the change they need. God will give us the power to control our fleshly attractions and give us His interest in their souls. Those who do evangelistic work on beaches and parks run into skimpy dressed people all the time. Been there, done that. When we get out where sinner's habit we experience the grace and enabling power of God to rise above temptation. We may struggle with this at first but that is just part of our spiritual development to learn how to rely on the Spirit's enabling power that works in us.
I assume that at some point in your interactions with natives in foreign missionary settings, you would encourage them to be kind to their neighbors, deal honestly, and not steal from others, even before they were committed Christians.
Just because God would give you the power and grace to interact with them while they are mean and dishonest, does not mean a person should wait till they are a Christian to teach them what God wants.

Just curious if you would wait till after they were Christians to start talking to them about modesty or if that is something you would talk to them about before they became a Christian?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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