Proper expectations on unbelievers

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Neto »

Ernie wrote: ... about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
Reminds me of a little book by Donald McGavran about church growth principles. (I cannot recall the name of the book.) He was somewhat controversial, even in Evangelical circles, because his studies had shown that discipleship was more of a determining factor than a person's reason's for "becoming a Christian". He found that some men who had become leaders in the church (in India, as I recall) had initially been "converted" so that their children could attend the missionary school, which was much better equipped than the national schools of that period. (The schools didn't actually require that the parents be Christian, but it was a common misconception held by the native people.) Basically, discipleship was the determining factor in the spiritual growth of "converts", no matter the reason for, or sincerity of, the "conversions".

Edited to add: The book I'm thinking of may have been Bridges of God. Dr. McGavran was a professor at Fuller School of World Mission, where my own professor got his doctorate in anthropology, and so we read a number of his books in our training.
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Sudsy
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Sudsy »

Ernie wrote: Perhaps we need to start another thread about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
That could help those of us the come from an Evangelical approach to making disciples. I think putting either of these first can have it's pitfalls. Some who claim to have an initial beginning point of salvation don't pursue being a Christ follower. Others decide to be a Christ follower and take on that challenge but have never been born of the Spirit.
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:
Neto wrote:I think that a corporation can obviously have dress standards. But in a partnership, those issues should have been handled at the beginning.
I don't think anybody on MN is disputing that this should have been talked about before the partnership went into effect so I don't think we need to keep talking about this.

I think the differences on this thread are...
1. What kind of expectations are reasonable for plain businessmen to expect of their business partners?
2. What kind of expectations are reasonable for plain businessmen to expect of their employees and customers who come to their place of business?
3. What kinds of expectations are reasonable for plain people to expect of people who frequently come to their home?
4. What values discussions and requests are plain people free to address with non-plain people and which ones are unreasonable?
Let me clarify something in the story.

The partner's wife was OUTSIDE, and the guy in question looked outside and saw her "long, flowing hair" and was bothered by it.

I don't think any business can expect to have a dress code that extends to the sidewalk outside their building.

The wife was not a business partner. She was just outside waiting to meet her husband.

I am stunned anyone thinks this behaviour should be tolerated at all.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Wayne in Maine »

I'm not afraid at this point to suggest that the real problem is in this man's heart, not in this woman's conduct.

Your mileage might vary.
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Josh »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I'm not afraid at this point to suggest that the real problem is in this man's heart, not in this woman's conduct.

Your mileage might vary.
I am cautious to say this because I think he is desiring to submit to his church, and has been taught to be careful about associating too much with "immodest" woman or even seeing one.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Josh wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:I'm not afraid at this point to suggest that the real problem is in this man's heart, not in this woman's conduct.

Your mileage might vary.
I am cautious to say this because I think he is desiring to submit to his church, and has been taught to be careful about associating too much with "immodest" woman or even seeing one.
What church expects its members to demand of their business partners that their wives put their hair up?
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mike
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by mike »

I have a dress standard for my employees, but I can't imagine demanding things like this of a business partner's wife. Or maybe I should say I can't imagine having a business partner that I was so strongly in disagreement with.
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Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Ernie »

mike wrote:I have a dress standard for my employees, but I can't imagine demanding things like this of a business partner's wife. Or maybe I should say I can't imagine having a business partner that I was so strongly in disagreement with.
I'm with you Mike.

However, isn't their a place for calling people to return to a practice that we believe is God-honoring - a practice that society used to affirm - without demanding that people accommodate our preferences?
Preachers have been doing this for centuries. We do it on MN all the time.
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Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote:Good cultures take a long time to develop but they can be trashed in one generation.
I think there is value in human culture and the more God honoring a human culture becomes, the more effective it can be at transmitting or hosting the Gospel.
Josh wrote:I agree with this, but how do you avoid being ethnocentric?
And do you avoid confusing your culture for be gospel? For example, in the recent hair-up-or-down thread, women having their hair up basically seems to be part of the gospel for you, and you feel a good culture will have women having their hair up.
The problem is I can't find anything in scripture about this at all.
Just to be clear, I don't think the hair needs to be up. Rather I'm saying that I don't think it is good for women to display their "glory" to men outside the family. I think this is inferred in I Corinthians 11. Referenced in Genesis 24:65, Numbers 5:18 and Isaiah 47:2, and an application of I Peter 3:3. History outside of the Bible seems to indicate that the Judeo/Christian world understood this as well. Many of the followers of Jesus that I am attracted to have had this practice in centuries past and still do so today. So in light of all of this, what God wants for Christians today seems very clear to me. I see it as a "wisdom conclusion" that people have arrived at after many centuries of observation and study.
However, if a person did not come to the same conclusion that I do, I would not say they are sinning or even misled. My strong hunch is that they are going to miss out on some important benefits in life, but I wouldn't judge them as being unspiritual or something like that.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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mike
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by mike »

Ernie wrote:
mike wrote:I have a dress standard for my employees, but I can't imagine demanding things like this of a business partner's wife. Or maybe I should say I can't imagine having a business partner that I was so strongly in disagreement with.
I'm with you Mike.

However, isn't their a place for calling people to return to a practice that we believe is God-honoring - a practice that society used to affirm - without demanding that people accommodate our preferences?
Preachers have been doing this for centuries. We do it on MN all the time.
Yes, I certainly think so.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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