Proper expectations on unbelievers

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ernie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Ernie »

I agree that we should not put our own conclusions about history on the same level as scripture.
buckeyematt2 wrote: I read quickly through Tertullian's "On Prayer" and I see where he addresses the veiling of virgins, but I didn't notice a reference to Egypt or to what you might mean by "more than a doily". Was there something I missed there, or somewhere else?
Tertullian was from Carthage, not Egypt so that was my error. That the Corinthians had adequate size coverings is implied but not expressly stated.

When he writes about the people living around him he writes,
“For some, with their turbans and woollen bands, do not veil their heads but bind them up... They were protected indeed in front, however they are bare where their head properly lies. Others are to a certain extent covered over the region of the brain with linen doilies of small dimensions which do not quite reach the ears. Let them know that the whole head constitutes the woman. Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is coextensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound.”

He compares his experience with knowledge he seems to have about the Corinthians,
“We ought to look at the churches where the apostles taught and see what those churches do... Let’s go and look at the church in Corinth, whom Paul wrote to... Likewise the Corinthians themselves understood him in this manner... in fact, at this very day the Corinthians do veil their virgins. What the apostles taught, their disciples approved.”

Also,
Hypolitus writes: “Let all the women have their head covered with an opaque cloth, not with a veil of thin linen, for this is not a true covering.”

So size and transparency were already being discussed in the early centuries of the church.

Which goes to show that people are the same no matter what century or culture we live in. :)
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Valerie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Valerie »

Reading Ernie's post, I note how I observe the Swartzentruber Amish women cover their heads- there is absolutely no hair showing, and they have a piece of material extending in the back to cover the back of their head- this seems to fit what Tertullian is describing as far as 'coverage' goes (adequate coverage)- except do I get the impression he means the face as well if the face is part of the head?
In that case, only the strictest Muslims seem to be doing this- as only their eyes are showing- I recently saw a woman covered head to toe like this with just her eyes showing, I have to admit, being all in black like that and only eyes showing was somewhat strange to me- in my area- just made me wonder though if Christians covered in that way, in Tertullians time & area-
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Valerie
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Valerie »

buckeyematt2 wrote:
Ernie wrote:
buckeyematt2 wrote:It seems to me that hair is indeed in a different category than skin. I don't see the veiling as a matter of modesty, or as a "modesty covering". Looking at 1 Corinthians 11, it seems to be connecting the veiling with prayer and the headship order. So I think descriptions like the "prayer veiling", "devotional covering", and "headship veiling" are more accurate. It is a sign of submission to God's created order of headship, and a matter of decorum as nature itself teaches, from the analogy of the hair as a natural covering (not that the hair is itself the covering - it doesn't fit with the rest of the passage, and the argument is a rhetorical argument in support of what he commanded, not a definition of the practice).

I don't think Paul meant to say that a woman's hair should be hidden and never be seen because it is her glory - that wasn't the point. His point is, again, the analogy of the hair as a natural covering, which shows that the woman wearing a veiling or covering as a symbol of headship authority is proper and decorous (and maybe even beautiful and glorious - if the woman's hair as a covering is her glory, then the veiling/covering could be seen as beautiful and glorious in a sense as well). His point is not that the hair should be covered, but that the head should be covered.
This explanation assumes a view of the Bible that I don't have, and that is that everything that is of any importance is explained in detail in the Bible.

Rather I believe that the Bible is everything that God thought was important to have written down for us.
I believe there is lots of wisdom to be gained from observing the course of history and the way God created the universe to function. Many of these things may be inferred in the Bible but can't be directly extrapolated. So if we think of head-veiling as being a common custom in Tarsus where Paul grew up as well as many other areas to the East, and see Paul building on the common custom, then the only things he needs to write about are how this custom is in harmony with Christian understanding and he doesn't need to go into detail about modesty, because that was already understood in the culture.
Tertullian notes that the Corinthians got the "more than a doily" part of Paul's teaching, whereas the Christians in Egypt did not. Corinthian virgins began veiling their heads and this was not part of the oriental custom, which made this a new Christian custom.
Hmm. Of course we can learn from history and tradition. But we shouldn't add them to Scripture or put them on the same level of authority as Scripture. (Same for reason and experience). And it's sometimes dangerous/tricky to infer things from Scripture that aren't there. (Inferring infant baptism from "household", for example). It's one thing to look at cultural background to understand Scripture, but another to add things from that culture to Scripture.

I read quickly through Tertullian's "On Prayer" and I see where he addresses the veiling of virgins, but I didn't notice a reference to Egypt or to what you might mean by "more than a doily". Was there something I missed there, or somewhere else?
The Apostle Paul taught that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth, not solely Scripture- they didn't write everything down- but the Holy Spirit was deposited in Her to guide her into truth- there is 'information' and 'teachings' that was not all written down but were no less guided by the Holy Spirit, as He is active- not just 'written' but 'oral' as in 2 2 Thessalonians 2:15:

2 Thessalonians 2:15King James Version (KJV)


15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

So it is not 'Scripture' ONLY- we see that there were oral teachings that were not written down- that is not 'adding' to Scripture but the recognition that there is Living Word & Written Word, both inspired by the Holy Spirit, and they should not disagree with each other. It also means that we can look to the writings of the early Church writers/fathers to gain more insight and understanding as the interpreted and elaborated on Scripture and guidance-
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Aaron
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Aaron »

Joy wrote: .......
I don't recall that Jesus reproved the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. He instead rebuked his host, using her as an example of love.
The prostitute? The one Jesus forgave ?

The prostitute who previously had let her hair down in order to attract (tempt) men, to get them to sin, and then take/ get their money?

Was she the one who Jesus told: go and sin no lest your condition becomes worse than before ?

The Hebrew women, Israelites, (married ones at least), were I think practicing keeping their hair covered, as it was only for their own husband to see and to admire. I think this is still a way of life for modest women.
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Josh »

Aaron wrote:
Joy wrote: .......
I don't recall that Jesus reproved the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. He instead rebuked his host, using her as an example of love.
The prostitute? The one Jesus forgave ?

The prostitute who previously had let her hair down in order to attract (tempt) men, to get them to sin, and then take/ get their money?

Was she the one who Jesus told: go and sin no lest your condition becomes worse than before ?

The Hebrew women, Israelites, (married ones at least), were I think practicing keeping their hair covered, as it was only for their own husband to see and to admire. I think this is still a way of life for modest women.
Help us all.
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Aaron
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Aaron »

Josh wrote: .............

Help us all.


Who does God help ? Who does God say should expect nothing from Him ? (in James I think) ....

Who does God say ends up in the lake of fire ? Is that God's Fault !? (heaven's no - God Forbid!)
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Josh »

Aaron wrote:
Josh wrote: .............

Help us all.


Who does God help ? Who does God say should expect nothing from Him ? (in James I think) ....

Who does God say ends up in the lake of fire ? Is that God's Fault !? (heaven's no - God Forbid!)
I was reacting to your concern about women having their hair not in a bun.
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Joy
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Joy »

Aaron wrote:
Joy wrote: .......
I don't recall that Jesus reproved the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. He instead rebuked his host, using her as an example of love.
The prostitute? The one Jesus forgave ?

The prostitute who previously had let her hair down in order to attract (tempt) men, to get them to sin, and then take/ get their money?

Was she the one who Jesus told: go and sin no lest your condition becomes worse than before ?

The Hebrew women, Israelites, (married ones at least), were I think practicing keeping their hair covered, as it was only for their own husband to see and to admire. I think this is still a way of life for modest women.
Would you point me to where Jesus/Scripture calls her a prostitute who used her hair to tempt men?
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AnthonyMartin
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by AnthonyMartin »

Joy wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Joy wrote: .......
I don't recall that Jesus reproved the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. He instead rebuked his host, using her as an example of love.
The prostitute? The one Jesus forgave ?

The prostitute who previously had let her hair down in order to attract (tempt) men, to get them to sin, and then take/ get their money?

Was she the one who Jesus told: go and sin no lest your condition becomes worse than before ?

The Hebrew women, Israelites, (married ones at least), were I think practicing keeping their hair covered, as it was only for their own husband to see and to admire. I think this is still a way of life for modest women.
Would you point me to where Jesus/Scripture calls her a prostitute who used her hair to tempt men?
The temple prostitute thesis regarding covering of hair was about 2 1/2 centuries removed from the early church, so the illustration doesn't work to excuse the veiling, or support the hair as temptation. The hair as temptation doesn't fit with I Corinthians either, so I'm not sure how this theory could be supported. Especially with the defense Jesus gave of using hair to wipe his feet in devotion.

Amazing what cultural bias can do distort texts.
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Josh »

Particularly a cultural bias that isn’t a culture any of us nor the Bible belong to.
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