Proper expectations on unbelievers

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Josh »

Muslims have always venerated Mary - almost as much as Catholics do.
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appleman2006
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by appleman2006 »

Ernie wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:
Josh wrote:A few months ago, I heard a plain Anabaptist person express that he finds his business partner's wife's hair distracting when it is down and long and flowing, and he discussed with him that he would like it if she were more modest and put her hair up when around him (or better yet wear a covering).

Keep in mind neither his partner nor his partner's wife are what I would describe as kingdom Christians.

What are reasonable expectations on unbelievers? I feel like expecting women to have their hair up is a very specific application of modesty, but hardly a universal biblical principle. And it seems very unreasonable to expect people who aren't even Christians to start complying with certain items of a specific church's standard.

(Regarding that standard, my own church does expect that, and I think it's a good application, but I can't find where the Bible says a woman's hair must be up - it just says uncut and that her head should be covered for prayer & prophecy.)
Wow. just Wow! I agree with Robert. But I would also say that if this guy has that kind of problem with his thoughts that he is the problem and he better take a real good look at why he has this problem. Blaming his thought life on someone else is a real cop out IMO.
Seems like some Muslims agree.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... 002589ac17

Quite the article. Its eerie how similar the arguments are to the arguments made by many Christians about headcovering (and other matters) They appeal to the same sources, the text, history, reason, etc. to make their case.
I really would have to read the article in more depth to totally understand what the author is trying to say. But I must say that the more I study this issue the more convinced I am that the reason the majority of Muslims wear a head covering and the reason Christian women are asked to wear the veiling is as different as night and day. And I really fear that when we make the veiling into a modesty thing rather than what it is supposed to be that we take the first step into making it something that God never intended it should be.
As pertaining to this topic a man thinking that the veiling is to be worn primarily to keep his thoughts pure is almost abhorrent to me and yet that is precisely what I see as the primary reason that many Muslims insist their women wear it. I also do not like the connotation given in many of those cultures that women are second class citizens. That also is very far from what Christianity teaches. And yet I fear that sometimes in conservative circles we have come closer to falling into that type of thinking than we might ever want to admit.
I believe the Christian woman's veiling when understood properly and worn for the right reasons is a very beautiful thing. I fear that way to many of us are missing it's real purpose.
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Josh
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

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appleman2006 wrote:And I really fear that when we make the veiling into a modesty thing rather than what it is supposed to be that we take the first step into making it something that God never intended it should be.
Where is this actually happening? In my old Midwest congregation, I never heard this taught, and the veiling was basically optional outside of Sunday services. I don't think anyone considered it a matter of modesty.

Likewise in the transitions happening in BMA circles and that already happened in CMC circles, the veiling shrank smaller and smaller until eventually it is gone. That's a sign it is purely symbolic and not viewed as a manner of modesty at all.
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MaxPC
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by MaxPC »

appleman2006 wrote: I really would have to read the article in more depth to totally understand what the author is trying to say. But I must say that the more I study this issue the more convinced I am that the reason the majority of Muslims wear a head covering and the reason Christian women are asked to wear the veiling is as different as night and day. And I really fear that when we make the veiling into a modesty thing rather than what it is supposed to be that we take the first step into making it something that God never intended it should be.
As pertaining to this topic a man thinking that the veiling is to be worn primarily to keep his thoughts pure is almost abhorrent to me and yet that is precisely what I see as the primary reason that many Muslims insist their women wear it. I also do not like the connotation given in many of those cultures that women are second class citizens. That also is very far from what Christianity teaches. And yet I fear that sometimes in conservative circles we have come closer to falling into that type of thinking than we might ever want to admit.
I believe the Christian woman's veiling when understood properly and worn for the right reasons is a very beautiful thing. I fear that way to many of us are missing it's real purpose.
Amen and amen. :up:
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appleman2006
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by appleman2006 »

Josh wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:And I really fear that when we make the veiling into a modesty thing rather than what it is supposed to be that we take the first step into making it something that God never intended it should be.
Where is this actually happening? In my old Midwest congregation, I never heard this taught, and the veiling was basically optional outside of Sunday services. I don't think anyone considered it a matter of modesty.

Likewise in the transitions happening in BMA circles and that already happened in CMC circles, the veiling shrank smaller and smaller until eventually it is gone. That's a sign it is purely symbolic and not viewed as a manner of modesty at all.
I think you would be amazed at how many Mennonites view the veiling as primarily a modesty or a non conformity issue. And my theory actually is that that reasoning is actually at least partly why some throw it away so casually. They have never been taught well it's true meaning and find the modesty reason to lack Biblical backing and so they are quick to discard it.
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Bill Rushby
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Bill Rushby »

When I was young, the veiling was called the "prayer covering." Prophecy was not mentioned at all; it doesn't really fit well into a conventional Anabaptist worldview. Later, the "prayer covering" was reinterpreted as the "headship covering." When I have raised questions about the disappearance of "prayer" and the complete omission of "prophecy," my questions were shunted aside as if they were irrelevant! It seems obvious to me that the interpretation of the "covering" is "evolving" (if I dare use that word on this list)!!!!" :) Perhaps "modesty covering" is the next step along the way.
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PeterG
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by PeterG »

Josh wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:And I really fear that when we make the veiling into a modesty thing rather than what it is supposed to be that we take the first step into making it something that God never intended it should be.
Where is this actually happening?
Among most of the conservative Anabaptists that I've been familiar with over the last 20+ years. Your experience appears to have been different from mine.
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Joy
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by Joy »

Josh wrote:A few months ago, I heard a plain Anabaptist person express that he finds his business partner's wife's hair distracting when it is down and long and flowing, and he discussed with him that he would like it if she were more modest and put her hair up when around him (or better yet wear a covering).

Keep in mind neither his partner nor his partner's wife are what I would describe as kingdom Christians.

What are reasonable expectations on unbelievers? I feel like expecting women to have their hair up is a very specific application of modesty, but hardly a universal biblical principle. And it seems very unreasonable to expect people who aren't even Christians to start complying with certain items of a specific church's standard.

(Regarding that standard, my own church does expect that, and I think it's a good application, but I can't find where the Bible says a woman's hair must be up - it just says uncut and that her head should be covered for prayer & prophecy.)
Very true, your statement above in bold.

I don't recall that Jesus reproved the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. He instead rebuked his host, using her as an example of love.
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temporal1
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by temporal1 »

Bill Rushby wrote:When I was young, the veiling was called the "prayer covering."
Prophecy was not mentioned at all; it doesn't really fit well into a conventional Anabaptist worldview.

Later, the "prayer covering" was reinterpreted as the "headship covering."
When I have raised questions about the disappearance of "prayer" and the complete omission of "prophecy," my questions were shunted aside as if they were irrelevant!

It seems obvious to me that the interpretation of the "covering" is "evolving" (if I dare use that word on this list)!!!!" :) Perhaps "modesty covering" is the next step along the way.
i appreciate your personal observations. memories can be remarkably short.

in my view, the word, "evolve," is overused, typically without basis.
for my purposes, when i come across it, i ask myself, does this represent evolving, or devolving?

i see more evidence of humans devolving rather than evolving - but, i understand the popularity of claiming the latter. we deceive ourselves. and seem happiest when doing so.
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RZehr
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Re: Proper expectations on unbelievers

Post by RZehr »

Among the people that progressively discontinue the practice, I've only heard them use the "sign" reasoning, and from there the "Corinthian culture" reasoning.
I've never heard anyone make the argument that since they don't view the covering as a modesty issue, they will discontinue it.
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