Cult Next Door Movie

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
ABC 123
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by ABC 123 »

Wade wrote:
I did have a conservative Mennonite minister (ultra-conservative) tell me that he met Bill Gothard. Bill commented to him that he couldn't understand why Mennonites would ever show up at his conferences as they had the scripture sorted out and were actually living it already.
This could actually be a flattering tactic by a smooth talker. Not saying it is, but the possibility is there.
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ohio jones
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by ohio jones »

ABC 123 wrote:
Wade wrote:
I did have a conservative Mennonite minister (ultra-conservative) tell me that he met Bill Gothard. Bill commented to him that he couldn't understand why Mennonites would ever show up at his conferences as they had the scripture sorted out and were actually living it already.
This could actually be a flattering tactic by a smooth talker. Not saying it is, but the possibility is there.
Bill's approach includes a lot of very low key sales tactics. I've heard that he said the same thing to non ultra conservative pastors as well, which leads me to believe it was a prepared response rather than a random comment. The number of times I've heard it repeated shows how effective it has been in shaping the Mennonite opinion of Gothardism.
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temporal1
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by temporal1 »

ohio jones wrote:
ABC 123 wrote:
Wade wrote:I did have a conservative Mennonite minister (ultra-conservative) tell me that he met Bill Gothard. Bill commented to him that he couldn't understand why Mennonites would ever show up at his conferences as they had the scripture sorted out and were actually living it already.
This could actually be a flattering tactic by a smooth talker. Not saying it is, but the possibility is there.
Bill's approach includes a lot of very low key sales tactics. I've heard that he said the same thing to non ultra conservative pastors as well, which leads me to believe it was a prepared response rather than a random comment. The number of times I've heard it repeated shows how effective it has been in shaping the Mennonite opinion of Gothardism.
old saying, "flattery will get you everywhere."
and, another, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar."

but, really, it's incumbent upon (the Christian) listener to not let the ego be pursuaded, and, doing so can certainly be, "a tough row to hoe."

ay-ya-ya. my brain is a mass of idioms. :-|
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Wade
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by Wade »

ohio jones wrote:
ABC 123 wrote:
Wade wrote:
I did have a conservative Mennonite minister (ultra-conservative) tell me that he met Bill Gothard. Bill commented to him that he couldn't understand why Mennonites would ever show up at his conferences as they had the scripture sorted out and were actually living it already.
This could actually be a flattering tactic by a smooth talker. Not saying it is, but the possibility is there.
Bill's approach includes a lot of very low key sales tactics. I've heard that he said the same thing to non ultra conservative pastors as well, which leads me to believe it was a prepared response rather than a random comment. The number of times I've heard it repeated shows how effective it has been in shaping the Mennonite opinion of Gothardism.
It was long ago before this minister was ever ordained, he was just a young man attending with his wife.

Flattery is only as disruptive to the receiver as his pride allows him in accepting it...

This man and his wife never went back but neither did they bother to bad talk either.

Like anything we should be "chewing off the meat and spitting out the bone."
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ABC 123
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by ABC 123 »

Wade wrote:
Like anything we should be "chewing off the meat and spitting out the bone."
I believe the Biblical directives are more along the lines of beware and discernment.

Interesting that the first time I heard the saying about meat/bones it was said by someone about to show a IBLP video to a (Mennonite) congregation.
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Wade
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by Wade »

ABC 123 wrote:
Wade wrote:
Like anything we should be "chewing off the meat and spitting out the bone."
I believe the Biblical directives are more along the lines of beware and discernment.

Interesting that the first time I heard the saying about meat/bones it was said by someone about to show a IBLP video to a (Mennonite) congregation.
I have only ever heard the meat and bones quote once from listening to Allen Roth, a Mennonite. I learned about the words beware and discernment listening to Bill Gothard... :-|

I think this reply I gave to someone recently when they were arguing about recognizing Valentine day which the world celebrates makes one a partaker of their sins might fit:
We have many beautiful birds created by our loving Creator that come within sight of where we live. But not all come close enough to distinguish. For those birds we use binoculars or some type of glass to magnify our view. So we use something made by the world to view God’s creation.
If we cannot see the purpose of something as a possible tool in being placed here to heighten our view, we would rather look at the binoculars, man and the birds instead of past or through them. Please don’t misunderstand me, as I would not advocate involvement or viewing life through worldly festivals. However if the world’s partaking of a festival reminds me of true and real love, which is from God and is God, and we are able to look to the original source of all things and not on a tool or festival; then it is rather our view or use of the tool that is the problem rather than the tool. Reminds me of Genesis 50:20

Death is terrible thing to focus on. It is a fatal enemy to us and the consequence of sin, yet Christ used it as the very “tool” to give life!
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Josh
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by Josh »

I think "meat and bones" applies as much to Gothard's teachings as it does to the Koran. Both have a lot of good instruction for upright, moral living, but are mixed with a lot of error, and Jesus' core teaching about loving our enemies and nonviolence are completely absent.

The follower of Jesus would do well to avoid seminars and instruction based on Gothard or the Koran.
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Wade
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:I think "meat and bones" applies as much to Gothard's teachings as it does to the Koran. Both have a lot of good instruction for upright, moral living, but are mixed with a lot of error, and Jesus' core teaching about loving our enemies and nonviolence are completely absent.

The follower of Jesus would do well to avoid seminars and instruction based on Gothard or the Koran.
I agree.
Just remember the majority of the world was not raised Mennonite nor have even heard of them and if they have, it is likely they have a wrong view of them.
The world is going to get teaching from somewhere.
We would do well to make the best of that(meat and bones) learning they have, I think... As you said there are teachings out there that are good and we don't want people to throw off the good in reaction to what they learned. Instead we should help them grow past that rather than cutting down as it leaves little or no time for building and edifying. Because Gothard's teachings are off someone who comes from learning them will be looking for something and I hope that that would be an excellent opportunity for us to share with them the teachings of Christ like you have shared above. If they are honest eventually those errors with be strikingly apparently or at least how they use some of those teachings that are good will be used in an edifying way.
Here's his defintion of deference from Mathew 5:38-42: “Rather than focusing on personal retaliation for wrongs done, we are to concentrate on demonstrating God’s love to offenders.” So is the principle off? Or is it the application that is off?
If the principle is not off then telling someone Gothard is wrong can be very confusing to an immature believer or one that hasn't seen or heard of a Christ like application of non-resistance.
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Josh
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by Josh »

Gothard had taught, amongst other things, that men with beards are rebellious, girls should artificially curl / perm their hair, and should wear makeup if their father likes it.

I will gladly tell any person, Christian or not, that those teachings are wrong, are not from the Bible, and that following Jesus is very different from strict authoritarian thinking.
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Wade
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:Gothard had taught, amongst other things, that men with beards are rebellious, girls should artificially curl / perm their hair, and should wear makeup if their father likes it.

I will gladly tell any person, Christian or not, that those teachings are wrong, are not from the Bible, and that following Jesus is very different from strict authoritarian thinking.
Again you don't understand... :?
Those are applications that are off. And anyone could turn around and look at many Mennonite churches and say just what you said - that some of their teachings are not from the bible... :roll:

Take a look at this in my devotional study I wrote almost a year ago after reading Gothard's definition for deference or non-resistance and his thoughts from Matthew 5:38-42, that after I sent it to a Conservative Mennonite minister, he replied back thanking me for it and said he enjoyed it:
Week 9:

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.” Matthew 5:38-42

Deference is high respect to another, it is a form of submission, of yielding, of not retaliating, of not resisting; as long as it is not outside God’s direction for us.

Deference is esteeming others higher than ourselves.

Since Christ said about not resisting evil; application of deference in these scriptures is towards those who have actually wronged you. Giving of yourself even when wrongfully obligated is only the first mile. It is when there is little left to give, when exhaustion has taken its course, when the loss hurts deeply, that we can through Christ offer more to the spiritual welfare of those not reciprocating that self denying love. “Love continues where obligation ends.”

Deference is letting go of my opinions, my understanding, my feelings, my heritage, my experiences - to benefit the spiritual growth and life of all others.

This scripture actually goes further than deference, as it is about: non-resistance. Jesus’ call is not to be passive so to avoid conflict, but to be active in peacefully serving those who are not peaceful. Being non-resistant is no debate against what the governments and people of the world are doing and going to do; it is a command from our Lord what a Christian will and will not do! Vengeance is His alone.

“Rather than focusing on personal retaliation for wrongs done, we are to concentrate on demonstrating God’s love to offenders.”

The challenge for me: Do I go the first mile and think I have fulfilled my obligations as a Christian or do I realize that I am only half-way?

Do I give up on others and their spiritual welfare because I am tired or hurt?

Jesus Christ did not revile when he was reviled, and had no desire to defend Himself. As He was suffering and dying He ask God to forgive them. He could have brought many angels and shed much justified blood but yet instead He left us an incredible example and made a way for us. This is deference, this is love, this is self-denial, this is non-resistance - as Jesus taught it!
This is the way some of his stuff inspires me - just remember I am selective with them - as it is more of early stuff we have kept and thrown out most all the rest.

The new CLP Sunday school quarterly started today with the children is about Moses. Look at him - he was well learned with the knowledge of Egypt. How did he use that knowledge? And remember the children of Israel rejected him for most all his life...
Again, how you perceive and use that knowledge is something you will have to give account for and you will not be giving an account for the person(s) that gave it to you.
Moses had more than enough excuses or blame to pass on with use of the knowledge he learned in Egypt to live a "good life" in Egypt or not go back...
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