Wade you are making some excellent points to consider.
When I was around 20 (?) a carload of us young Christians commuted daily/evenings to a Bill Gothard Seminar & we all felt it was very beneficial to our walk with Christ- we certainly weren't learning some of his teachings at church nor home.
And as you pointed out none of us had any inkling about Mennonites or Anabaptists, never heard of them nor their particular 'emphasis' on particular passages- I have come to the conclusion that each denomination has their own particular 'emphasis' on particular passages more than others- I guess they all are members of the Church that make up the whole-
Anyways- I think for a lot of young people in Southern California, Bill Gothard seminars were steering us to a closer more Biblical walk than we were exposed to- it was worth all the time & trouble for us young people at the time.
Cult Next Door Movie
- Josh
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
I'm puzzled what Gothard seminars have to offer that the Bible doesn't, and in my experience, both the principles and the applications are far afield from what I consider to be the message of the Bible.
Gothard focuses a lot on the family and ancestry as the source of pretty much everything good or bad in your life. That's a very different message from the New Testament, which has little emphasis on family, ancestry, or ethnicity.
Gothardism also always happened outside of the context of a local church with accountability of the person doing the instruction or teaching to the congregation. Often, the instruction was delivered by video tapes or DVDs, so the audience has no opportunity to respond, ask questions, or challenge at all. It's entirely a one way delivery.
Finally, I think we need to beware of drinking from the fruit of poisoned wells. Gothard talked a lot about the need for moral purity. He talked a lot about how important marriage & family is. Yet he did not achieve moral purity in his own life, and he also was unmarried.
A stopped clock is right twice a day, and there are some principles and applications in Gothard's books that are a good idea. But, to be frank, that makes his teachings all the more deceptive - requiring a great deal of discernment in order to separate the good from the bad. Why not just stick to strong, solid sources from people who have proven themselves reliable?
Gothard focuses a lot on the family and ancestry as the source of pretty much everything good or bad in your life. That's a very different message from the New Testament, which has little emphasis on family, ancestry, or ethnicity.
Gothardism also always happened outside of the context of a local church with accountability of the person doing the instruction or teaching to the congregation. Often, the instruction was delivered by video tapes or DVDs, so the audience has no opportunity to respond, ask questions, or challenge at all. It's entirely a one way delivery.
Finally, I think we need to beware of drinking from the fruit of poisoned wells. Gothard talked a lot about the need for moral purity. He talked a lot about how important marriage & family is. Yet he did not achieve moral purity in his own life, and he also was unmarried.
A stopped clock is right twice a day, and there are some principles and applications in Gothard's books that are a good idea. But, to be frank, that makes his teachings all the more deceptive - requiring a great deal of discernment in order to separate the good from the bad. Why not just stick to strong, solid sources from people who have proven themselves reliable?
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
Are you sure this wasn't more of what you focused on from his talks rather than being like the Bereans?...Josh wrote:I'm puzzled what Gothard seminars have to offer that the Bible doesn't, and in my experience, both the principles and the applications are far afield from what I consider to be the message of the Bible.
Gothard focuses a lot on the family and ancestry as the source of pretty much everything good or bad in your life. That's a very different message from the New Testament, which has little emphasis on family, ancestry, or ethnicity.
If we want reactionary people coming to the Mennonite church that need to throw out everything they have ever learned - then they will also be encouraged to react wrongly to any authority in the Mennonite church too!
This is exactly my experience with most Mennonites. Be still, listen to God's people, don't tell them what to do and submit... At least not all are like this and it keeps me coming back.Josh wrote:Gothardism also always happened outside of the context of a local church with accountability of the person doing the instruction or teaching to the congregation. Often, the instruction was delivered by video tapes or DVDs, so the audience has no opportunity to respond, ask questions, or challenge at all. It's entirely a one way delivery.
Unfortunately in my life I have been accused of some horrible things that weren't remotely true. Since we have a different lifestyle than the world this can easily continue to happen. I am quite uncomfortable with my eternal destiny if I side with news or gossip(poisoned wells ) that hasn't been proven or verified. I'd rather not assume or agree with anything too quickly.Josh wrote:Finally, I think we need to beware of drinking from the fruit of poisoned wells. Gothard talked a lot about the need for moral purity. He talked a lot about how important marriage & family is. Yet he did not achieve moral purity in his own life, and he also was unmarried.
Still was looking myself...Josh wrote:A stopped clock is right twice a day, and there are some principles and applications in Gothard's books that are a good idea. But, to be frank, that makes his teachings all the more deceptive - requiring a great deal of discernment in order to separate the good from the bad. Why not just stick to strong, solid sources from people who have proven themselves reliable?
One of the Mennonite churches we attended was doing awful internally and ended with ridiculous threats made towards us and even telling our children things they shouldn't in secret... The next Mennonite church I wanted to move to and still feel at home with - the minister implied we could homeschool and then later when it looked like a job was lining up and we would have the opportunity to move he said that we couldn't homeschool. This didn't bother me but my wife has had enough - it is over my family. I have lost all hope of being able to move near a Mennonite church where I feel at home...
So really there is no point of me being on here then either... Be careful newcomers.
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- Josh
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
I would agree, Wade, that ultra conservative churches like the ones you had experience with have the same abuse of authority issues that Gothard tends to engender.
I really wish you could visit a moderate conservative church sometimes and find out not all Mennonites are crazy control freaks.
I really wish you could visit a moderate conservative church sometimes and find out not all Mennonites are crazy control freaks.
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
Josh, I know you are well aware that it is no secret Mennonites have been plagued with some of the same immorality that you are accusing Bill Gothard of- remember this came up on MD? I really don't want to list all the stories out there- but by using the same logic/conclusions you are, one would toss out Mennonites with Gothard perhaps for similar reasons. In fact I know a young man in Ohio who was raised Mennonite that said he could expose so much that it would completely destroy Mennonite denomination (you may even know of him) I'm not saying this to criticize Mennonites at all because I know better than to judge the whole by a part- just saying it is easy to defend that which we are a part of, and turn blind eyes while tearing down others for the same thing- as that passage 'judge not lest ye be judged the same judgement' we just have to be careful. There is sin in every camp and we know it. The enemy doesn't need to tempt and try to take down ineffective Christians, he will try to destroy those trying to make a difference, especially those in the public eye- have seen that over and over.Josh wrote:I would agree, Wade, that ultra conservative churches like the ones you had experience with have the same abuse of authority issues that Gothard tends to engender.
I really wish you could visit a moderate conservative church sometimes and find out not all Mennonites are crazy control freaks.
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
The thing about Gothard is he admitted to some level of impropriety. Perhaps more details will emerge about that soon.
He made a life of selling seminars teaching people the formula for godly living. If he is guilty of even a little of what he is accused of then what does that say? The same level of hypocrisy existed when Josh Duggar was caught in extra marital affairs while drawing a paycheck being a national spokesman for family values.
I agree with so much of what Josh said in this thread. We have the Bible. Is that not enough?
He made a life of selling seminars teaching people the formula for godly living. If he is guilty of even a little of what he is accused of then what does that say? The same level of hypocrisy existed when Josh Duggar was caught in extra marital affairs while drawing a paycheck being a national spokesman for family values.
I agree with so much of what Josh said in this thread. We have the Bible. Is that not enough?
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
In my experience people that are much into Gothard seldom settle down in a church, and if they do they seldom are very much involved. In my old C&MA- church we had a number of them come through but they could always find something wrong. One I know was proselytizing so much for the "full quiver " viewpoint that the elders had to get involved. Homeschooling was another flashpoint.Josh wrote:I'm puzzled what Gothard seminars have to offer that the Bible doesn't, and in my experience, both the principles and the applications are far afield from what I consider to be the message of the Bible.
Gothard focuses a lot on the family and ancestry as the source of pretty much everything good or bad in your life. That's a very different message from the New Testament, which has little emphasis on family, ancestry, or ethnicity.
Gothardism also always happened outside of the context of a local church with accountability of the person doing the instruction or teaching to the congregation. Often, the instruction was delivered by video tapes or DVDs, so the audience has no opportunity to respond, ask questions, or challenge at all. It's entirely a one way delivery.
Finally, I think we need to beware of drinking from the fruit of poisoned wells. Gothard talked a lot about the need for moral purity. He talked a lot about how important marriage & family is. Yet he did not achieve moral purity in his own life, and he also was unmarried.
A stopped clock is right twice a day, and there are some principles and applications in Gothard's books that are a good idea. But, to be frank, that makes his teachings all the more deceptive - requiring a great deal of discernment in order to separate the good from the bad. Why not just stick to strong, solid sources from people who have proven themselves reliable?
In short, Gothardism produces an alternative to a church, without any external authority to speak into the lives of these families. The only authority is "pope" Gothard.
J.M.
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- Josh
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
Wade, if that man knows of so much evil, he has a duty to expose it. Righteousness demands no less. Chances are he is just blustering.
But can the Mennonite "denomination" be destroyed? Part of being Mennonite is just about following the Bible. That part can never be destroyed.
But the rest can go up in ashes, and indeed will when everything is tested with fire.
But can the Mennonite "denomination" be destroyed? Part of being Mennonite is just about following the Bible. That part can never be destroyed.
But the rest can go up in ashes, and indeed will when everything is tested with fire.
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
Josh wrote:Wade, if that man knows of so much evil, he has a duty to expose it. Righteousness demands no less. Chances are he is just blustering.
But can the Mennonite "denomination" be destroyed? Part of being Mennonite is just about following the Bible. That part can never be destroyed.
But the rest can go up in ashes, and indeed will when everything is tested with fire.
Rightly divide these passages (I think you meant your question for me Josh, not for Wade?)
1 Peter 4:
…7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so you can pray. 8Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Show hospitality to one another without complaining.…
Ephesians 5:11:
10Test and prove what pleases the Lord. 11Have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.…
I am not suggesting the Mennonite denomination should or could be destroyed although denominations won't exist in restored Paradise- however it's easy to jump all over a fallen brother outside of one's own denomination, while realizing we have the same sins in our own.
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Re: Cult Next Door Movie
I have mulled over this post and I have to say I am horrified if this is true. Enough abuse to destroy an entire denomination needs to be be exposed and stopped NOW. (Not to say "just a little" abuse would be ok...)Valerie wrote:
Josh, I know you are well aware that it is no secret Mennonites have been plagued with some of the same immorality that you are accusing Bill Gothard of- remember this came up on MD? I really don't want to list all the stories out there- but by using the same logic/conclusions you are, one would toss out Mennonites with Gothard perhaps for similar reasons. In fact I know a young man in Ohio who was raised Mennonite that said he could expose so much that it would completely destroy Mennonite denomination (you may even know of him) I'm not saying this to criticize Mennonites at all because I know better than to judge the whole by a part- just saying it is easy to defend that which we are a part of, and turn blind eyes while tearing down others for the same thing- as that passage 'judge not lest ye be judged the same judgement' we just have to be careful. There is sin in every camp and we know it. The enemy doesn't need to tempt and try to take down ineffective Christians, he will try to destroy those trying to make a difference, especially those in the public eye- have seen that over and over.
We would sit passively by and just turn a blind eye to this and by that same token give another guy (in this discussion, Gothard) a pass because "it's happening everywhere"???????
These statements are disturbing on so many levels.
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