What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by RZehr »

1 John 5:16, 17 says:
"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not unto death."

What is a sin not unto death? Is a sin not unto death a "small" sin; a sin that is covered by the grace of God; a sin of omission; a sin that does not send one to Hell?

Or is a sin unto death talking about the unpardonable sin? And a sin not death would be everything else?

I don't want to get lost into the whole "eternal-security/at-what-point-does-one-lose-his-salvation" debate. But maybe we will have to dip our toes into it.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I'll follow this thread-
Always wondered about this passage. Was thinking of it just the other day, in fact.
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silentreader
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by silentreader »

RZehr wrote:1 John 5:16, 17 says:
"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not unto death."

What is a sin not unto death? Is a sin not unto death a "small" sin; a sin that is covered by the grace of God; a sin of omission; a sin that does not send one to Hell?

Or is a sin unto death talking about the unpardonable sin? And a sin not death would be everything else?

I don't want to get lost into the whole "eternal-security/at-what-point-does-one-lose-his-salvation" debate. But maybe we will have to dip our toes into it.
A couple of thoughts, I believe that Vs 14-17 should be read together to establish context,
1 John 5:14-17English Standard Version (ESV)
14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God[a] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
suggesting that John is saying that we can have confidence God will answer our prayers concerning brothers who are sinning, but there are other cases when we pray for sinners who are sinning certain sins, when we can not expect our prayers to be answered.
The passage is possibly just as much about answer to intercessory prayer made 'according to His will' as it is about different types of sin. I expect John's audience knew what he was talking about, so he did not have to explain further.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by KingdomBuilder »

SR,
I really appreciate your input. What you're saying makes sense to me.
Especially this-
I expect John's audience knew what he was talking about, so he did not have to explain further.
I've wondered as to why John wouldn't elaborate on such a claim... Surely if the passage were about the sins themselves, he would have. Right?
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MaxPC
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by MaxPC »

Great thread, RZehr.

My explanation would be from Catholic theology and since this is an Anabaptist thread, I'll keep schtum about that perspective on list. If you're interested in the Catholic read of it, feel free to PM me.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I'd still like to know, though, of how we are to know which sins lead to death (and are therefore beyond our means of intercession). Anyone?
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silentreader
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by silentreader »

KingdomBuilder wrote:I'd still like to know, though, of how we are to know which sins lead to death (and are therefore beyond our means of intercession). Anyone?
Concerning the sin aspect, I'd like to toss something out there...
My understanding is that the Greek would read something like this, (and Those Who Can Read Greek will have to confirm or deny this), "If any one sees his brother sinning a sin..." from which I infer, and perhaps incorrectly, that the person is involved in present, active sin, which he does neither confess or repent of. John says that when you pray for a person in that condition, do not necessarily expect your prayer to be answered.
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by KingdomBuilder »

1 John 5:14-17 (ESV)
14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God[a] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
I think that the attachment of brother to sins that lead not to death is important. Simply, a brother is one who shares in the faith and walk of Christ with us- a fellow Christian.
We do not, however, see the brothers being connected with the sins leading unto death. If ones not a brother, they're not in the faith. Right?

Would it be fair to say, then, that sins that lead unto death are the sins of the unrepentant and the unbelieving? This would make sense to me in light of the passage. We cannot expect our prayers to save such people... Though we may ask and hope for salvation to be brought, we cannot expect it to happen just because we pray on it. Unfortunately.

On the other hand, when a brother sins, he is not leading to death. He may slip and sin, but if he is still a Christian, he is not destined for hell. These are the people that our prayers will be answered for- prayers for encouragement, conviction, reconciliation, forgiveness, and growth.

I believe there are a number of passages that would speak against the notion that certain sins are the only ones that will get you to hell... I think this passage is more about the sinner, not the specific sin.
Any thoughts?
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by MaxPC »

silentreader wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:I'd still like to know, though, of how we are to know which sins lead to death (and are therefore beyond our means of intercession). Anyone?
Concerning the sin aspect, I'd like to toss something out there...
My understanding is that the Greek would read something like this, (and Those Who Can Read Greek will have to confirm or deny this), "If any one sees his brother sinning a sin..." from which I infer, and perhaps incorrectly, that the person is involved in present, active sin, which he does neither confess or repent of. John says that when you pray for a person in that condition, do not necessarily expect your prayer to be answered.
I believe God answers all prayers: sometimes the answer is no.
Another dimension to add to this thread:

[bible]Matthew 12, 31[/bible] [bible]Mark 3, 29[/bible]
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

Post by KingdomBuilder »

MaxPC wrote:I believe God answers all prayers: sometimes the answer is no
If you pray for someone to become a Christian and it doesn't happen, is it really because God says no?
Something to think about.
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