What Does "Sin Unto Death" mean? 1 John 5:16,17

[silentreader]

Great thread, RZehr.

My explanation would be from Catholic theology and since this is an Anabaptist thread, I'll keep schtum about that perspective on list. If you're interested in the Catholic read of it, feel free to PM me.

I think we've discussed it for a bit. I'm fine with you sharing in brief, publicly, how the Catholics understand this.

Thank you, RZehr. I'd be happy to except for one snag: Catholic explanations are never brief in our writings. They tend to be repetitive so that the meanings are clear in multiple languages.

An extremely abbreviated version is that we categorize sins according to the severity of impact on a man's immortal soul.

There are venial (smaller) sins that impede a man's discipleship but don't deal a death blow to his soul's eternal hope of salvation.

Then there are the mortal sins (the really big ones) that place a man's soul in danger of eternal damnation if he does not repent.

Repentance is always key to any of them. As the Bible instructs we never know fully what passes between a man's soul and God.

Hope that helps. Even the abbreviated versions are long winded. Just don't share this with the Vatican because someone, somewhere, in those ancient halls with far too much time on his hands will start nitpicking it to death.

I know you were not responding to me, but thanks anyway, Max. That is kind of how I would have understood the Catholic view. I think I've said elsewhere that I'm not comfortable 'rating' sin, this is especially true of my own, and I'm not convinced I'm qualified to rate anyone else's. I can see, however where there may be some logic in it.
As you said, the key for dealing with sin is repentance, and I would add to that, confession is also necessary, especially in the sense of 'agreeing with God' about what is sin.

[Bootstrap]

The Catholic Catechism is probably one of the better places to read about their position on Mortal vs. Venial sin. It's reasonably short and easy to understand. Here's the version with links to related teaching, from the Vatican site:

IV. The Gravity of Sin: Mortal and Venial Sin

[MaxPC]

I think we've discussed it for a bit. I'm fine with you sharing in brief, publicly, how the Catholics understand this.

Thank you, RZehr. I'd be happy to except for one snag: Catholic explanations are never brief in our writings. They tend to be repetitive so that the meanings are clear in multiple languages.

An extremely abbreviated version is that we categorize sins according to the severity of impact on a man's immortal soul.

There are venial (smaller) sins that impede a man's discipleship but don't deal a death blow to his soul's eternal hope of salvation.

Then there are the mortal sins (the really big ones) that place a man's soul in danger of eternal damnation if he does not repent.

Repentance is always key to any of them. As the Bible instructs we never know fully what passes between a man's soul and God.

Hope that helps. Even the abbreviated versions are long winded. Just don't share this with the Vatican because someone, somewhere, in those ancient halls with far too much time on his hands will start nitpicking it to death.

I know you were not responding to me, but thanks anyway, Max. That is kind of how I would have understood the Catholic view. I think I've said elsewhere that I'm not comfortable 'rating' sin, this is especially true of my own, and I'm not convinced I'm qualified to rate anyone else's. I can see, however where there may be some logic in it.
As you said, the key for dealing with sin is repentance, and I would add to that, confession is also necessary, especially in the sense of 'agreeing with God' about what is sin.

Silentreader, I'm completely in agreement with you on that issue of "rating" the sins of another as an uncomfortable thing. For some who are prone to being legalistic it can damage a fellowship too.

That rating system is primarily used by the Catholic Magisterium and clergy to discern the level of danger that a person's soul may be in and how much danger that unrepentant sinful behavior poses to the rest of the faith community. It also serves as a guide for the clergy to give spiritual advice for returning to a healthy walk in discipleship. Clergy receives a great deal of training in handling these matters with compassion. Some are more gifted with this ministry than others: as with any ministry.

If a person persists in mortally sinful behaviors without repentance then the possibility of excommunication is examined.

The types and seriousness of various sins are also taught to the faithful as a part of the Church's emphasis on our need to be responsible for our own actions and to seek repentance as necessary to remain in a healthy relationship with Christ.

As I said, it's never simple with us.

[Sudsy]

I got thinking about this 'death' mentioned whether it could possibly be physical death and not spiritual death. In 1 Cor 11 we read of a warning that taking communion in an unworthy manner results in physical death. I think a strong case can be made that an unworthy manner is one in which a participant is not recognizing their unity with Christ and the body of believers that they are gathered with. And perhaps even recognizing a wider vision of unity of those who call upon Christ as Lord. The warning is that this results in cases of sickness and death (which I take to mean physical death).

Anyway, I ran across this article explaining various beliefs on this 1 John text that may be interesting to those looking at this subject. https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj1b.pdf

I was raised to believe the 'sin unto death' was the same thing as the 'unpardonable sin' which is to reject the Holy Spirit's call to believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Also, was taught you could accept and later reject Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Learned later that some Christians believe anyone trully saved will never reject Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Seems there is plenty of scripture to support both of these views also.

Regarding praying for others, I don't think all our requests are answered with a 'yes' or 'no'. 1 John 5:14 - This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. Note when He hears us. I know I don't always pray according to God's will for various reasons but I believe God wants me to ask anyway believing that when I do pray according to His will He does hear. If and when He thinks I need to be answered, He will answer.

[KingdomBuilder]

This is one of them more, err, tacky verses of the NT.

Did you mean 'tricky'? I don't think you mean tacky.

Well, I did mean tacky. But not meaning the definition of distasteful, I really did mean sticky.

[Josh]

I believe God answers all prayers: sometimes the answer is no

If you pray for someone to become a Christian and it doesn't happen, is it really because God says no?
Something to think about.

The Bible specifically says that God doesn't answer some prayers. James comes to mind.

[KingdomBuilder]

The Bible specifically says that God doesn't answer some prayers. James comes to mind.

I agree.

[silentreader]

I was just thinking about 1 John 5:16,17 for a different reason, and I wondered if at least v18 is an important part of the equation.

1 John 5:18-19English Standard Version (ESV)
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

I'm not sure that I want to necessarily develop this thought further on here, just some musings that I felt were food for thought.