Highest calling?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Sudsy »

A problem I have run across with some who put reflecting Jesus in their living before they preach the Gospel is that some never feel qualified enough to share about Jesus. They know they are imperfect saints and some of their sinning is something satan can use to interfere with any desire to share their faith. This is not something that is a concern of new converts. Even at a baby believer stage with sins that may still be obvious, they take their new found faith in Jesus to their friends because it is not about how perfect they are living but rather what Christ has done for them. Many in these early stages of growth have been very fruitful fishers of men. It happened in the Sudds family. Praise the Lord !!

I agree, Valerie, it is not about us but about Jesus. He alone is the perfect one to look upon. Actually, looking upon us can create confusion not only by sins we struggle with but differing ways we separate ourselves from the unsaved. And as you say, "we should have a burden for the lost as Christ did-and the Apostles did". If that is missing, have we been born again ? I would think this is as much a sign of a truly changed of heart as other lifestyle changes that develop from our conversion.

The other point I care to add is that we can't save anyone by our fishing methods. We are to share and wait for the Holy Spirit to make the truth obvious to the listener. There are no 'fool proof soul winning' techiques. If the Holy Spirit does not reveal the Gospel as truth, then the 'conversion' will not last. Millions have been saved through a simple Gospel tract as the Holy Spirit does what He is said in scripture to do - convict the world of sin and righteousness.
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RZehr
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:A problem I have run across with some who put reflecting Jesus in their living before they preach the Gospel is that some never feel qualified enough to share about Jesus. They know they are imperfect saints and some of their sinning is something satan can use to interfere with any desire to share their faith. This is not something that is a concern of new converts. Even at a baby believer stage with sins that may still be obvious, they take their new found faith in Jesus to their friends because it is not about how perfect they are living but rather what Christ has done for them. Many in these early stages of growth have been very fruitful fishers of men. It happened in the Sudds family. Praise the Lord !!
.......
The other point I care to add is that we can't save anyone by our fishing methods. We are to share and wait for the Holy Spirit to make the truth obvious to the listener. There are no 'fool proof soul winning' techiques. If the Holy Spirit does not reveal the Gospel as truth, then the 'conversion' will not last. Millions have been saved through a simple Gospel tract as the Holy Spirit does what He is said in scripture to do - convict the world of sin and righteousness.
:up:
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Adam
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Adam »

I appreciate Paul's (not the apostle but the MN user) zeal for evangelism, and I think that it is something that perhaps some conservative Anabaptist groups neglect. Other conservative Anabaptist groups are very active in evangelism, but probably not in the way that mainstream Protestants are and so it is overlooked. Personally I take issue with the popular mainstream form of Evangelism that likens evangelism to 'closing the deal' on a sales call.

When reading about the apostles' evangelistic efforts, I think it is helpful to remind ourselves that they were mostly (but not always) evangelizing Jews and God-fearing Gentiles. In other words, they were preaching to groups that were already largely focused on God and who were awaiting the arrival of the Messiah. Many, of course, disagreed with the proclamation that Jesus was the Messiah, and so the apostles faced intense persecution. But those mass conversions were not without a lot of prior groundwork done in the lives of people who were already very focused on trying to live godly lives and who already accepted the Septuagint as the Word of God and acknowledged YHWH as their God.

Evangelism today is a different task. The people we are evangelizing in this day and age are generally not actively seeking after the God of the Bible (although they may be interested in a more general 'spirituality'). Many are anti-Christianity or so involved with the world that they don't even think about God. That is not to say that we shouldn't evangelize them--we should. But the task is a different one than the apostles were facing. I think we need to lay more ground work, which I believe is done through relationships and practical every day teaching opportunities and sharing opportunities. American Protestants, however, love to hear about big numbers of people making a decision for Christ. But they don't like to hear about the fact that many of those same people that raise their hands in an evangelistic meeting are never baptized and don't end up becoming disciples in the long run.

Evangelism is about making disciples, and making a disciple requires an ongoing relationship with those who are seeking. I do think that there is a lot of wisdom in the words attributed to St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary use words." People need to see faith lived out to become disciples. That is why Jesus spent three years living with his disciples and showing them with his words and deeds what it means to be a citizen of God's Kingdom. Actions do speak louder than words. (But words should not be neglected either.)

Yet my exposure to evangelism in America seems more like sales techniques that focus on closing the deal and then moving on to the next potential customer and the long-term discipleship component is missing. As a result, we have lots of converts but few disciples. During our recent furlough (before I became a Kingdom Christian), I did altar calls at each service, and probably had 50-75 people raise their hands, making a decision for Christ. But I would be surprised if many of them were baptized and actively becoming disciples now. I imagine that only a handful are. The sales deal approach to evangelism also leaves many believers feeling like second-class citizens because they are shy or because they are not good with words, yet we promote those who are good at closing the deal, even if they are not making disciples or living out the Christian life themselves. Those are some trends that I have seen regarding 'evangelism' that disturb me.
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Valerie
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Valerie »

I was thinking about the parable of the sower:
Matthew 13King James Version (KJV)

13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


When I read this parable Jesus taught, He seemed to realize that seeds were to be sown- and only some of them would bear fruit- I think Evangelicals realize this parable makes it clear, because Jesus is the one who conveyed it- that most of the seeds would not take root? But He didn't convey not to sow the seeds.
I understand what many are implying about Evangelicals because they really do feel the need to take the Great Commission seriously-
I agree there needs to be more discipleship and more mentoring, but different people have different gifts- and he called some to be 'evangelists' (Ephesians 4:11)

One thing I try to keep in mind:
1 Corinthians 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Every member of the body of Christ should be part of the process of building the Kingdom- everyone has different gifts and different opportunities.
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Sudsy
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Sudsy »

Hi Adam, enjoying your input.

I do agree that there are flaws in some forms of evangelism when it doesn't result in changed lives. Some do the hell fire preaching, although I can't find that form used in the book of Acts anywhere. Some seem to have a formula and if followed they tell folks they are now born again. One very popular mega church preacher ends each sermon with do this (and he gives a sinners prayer to pray) and then says that for those who prayed it, we believe you have been born again. I really don't think anyone needs to be told they are born again when it occurs as they will surely know when they have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. That, to me, is the most major problem - not expecting a dramatic change of heart (disposition towards God and our fellow man) when conversion first occurs. A second major problem is how the new born babe in Christ is treated and fed. Disipleship must immediately begin and some evangelicals do this quite well, while others don't.

I don't view evangelism today any more or less harder than it ever has been. Scripture says were sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. Nothing is too hard for God and as Valerie says, we are to be seed sowers. God will give the increase. And scripture also says that no one is seeking after God but it is the other way around. God is seeking us. Many churches today are called "seeker friendly" and attempt to make sinners comfortable in coming to church. Well, being friendly is fine but sinners should feel quite uncomfortable in a bible believing church. They should sense the love of God for them through His people but also feel very convicted of their sin. Anyway, I'm wandering off topic so I'll shut up.
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Paul
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Paul »

I am really glad to read there is an earnest longing for Evangelism here on the forum, and I agree, there are wrong ways to sow that do not produce true converts (even though God can still use it sometimes - I've heard of people come to genuine faith first being stirred up by Jehova's Witnesses). But that does not mean there is no right way to sow the seed of the Gospel as Sudsy said, and we should leave the increase up to God, we should just be faithful to perform our duty of sowing the seed after the Lords command and labouring for the Lords Kingdom. I don't particularly take st Francis of Assissi as authoritative on the matter of Evangelism. I've actually been told that very same quote by a Christian when I was doing street Evangelism with a friend - it seems to one of the ways people shield themselves from the conviction of duty. I heard Ray Comfort say that he searched st Francis' works high and low and couldn't find that quote, I personally don't think it's particularly Biblical either, it's better to go with the example of Christ and the Apostles.

But I just wanted to share a little piece of a sermon I am translating right now, by Samuel Rutherford, when I read it I had to think about this thread and the beauty of the Gospel we are called to share with the world. The sermon is on Luke 14, which by the way is another excellent example of how we (as the servant) are called to bid others to come in - audibly and literally compell them to come - all we have to do is follow his example to call people to the Great Supper, and say "Come, for all things are now ready." It's not a complicated message.

[On Luke 14:16-24)
"The Lord invites us to a banquet and great Supper. That is the hardest word that the Gospel speaks to poor sinners, "Come." Never a word of hell, the wrath of God, or the plagues of God for sin. But His words are all (though He speaks in wrath to His enemies), My dear friends, I shall put Myself under your obligation, if ye will come and sup with Me. Surely, beloved, the Lord might have supped His alone. The angels are good company; but God thinks He wants company if the children of men are not with Him! In Proverbs 8:31, says Wisdom (which is Christ), "I was with God, yet playing and sporting with the children of men." Here indeed, is love itself, the Lord inviting us to embrace the Gospel! He resembles it to a great supper. Merciful God! Thou mightest command us, under the pain of condemnation, to come and believe in the Son of God. But not a word of that here: the Lord will hire us to come to the kingdom of heaven - this is evangelic. The first word that the Gospel speaks is mercy, mercy to poor sinners."
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Sudsy
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Sudsy »

Interesting text Paul. In another post the text on being a seed sower could be taken that we just proclaim the truth of the Gospel and then our duty is over. But here in Luke 14:23 we see that there is a compelling of those to come. The love of God in our hearts for others to join the banquet is so strong that this shows up in our evangelism. And this invite reaches out to the lowest strata of society. We see everyone as a possible guest whom Christ is inviting. I have been more aware of this lately as I go about observing people where they habit. Do I see the value of a lost soul behind the outward appearance and/or actions and/or talk of a sinner. But for the grace of God, that could be me. Have they really heard the story of Jesus and His love for them or has this all been blurred by churchianity and/or other things ?

I have shared this somewhere before but I will share it again. My uncle was from the southern states and had no use for any African American. Then he was born again and my father was looking to see how this manifested itself in his life. Well, one day together they visited a skid row mission in Detroit city. And there was this remarkable change of heart my dad got to see. There was my uncle with his arm around a ragged looking, African American drunkard telling him how Jesus loves him. God had trully changed my uncle's heart.

I was fortunate to have been raised in a home where the salvation of the lost was this 'highest calling' in the lives of my parents. I saw this love in action with much self sacrifice to see others come to the banquet. I have seen the tears shed for lost souls and earnest desire for the salvation of others. Don't see this too much anymore where I live. Need more of this love myself.
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Josh
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Josh »

I would daresay most conservative Anabaptists are active in evangelism. You can spend about as much free time as you want going to street meetings, cottage meetings, tract distribution, kids' clubs, or mission trips as you want to. And then there are mission-oriented church plants both within the Western world and outside of it you could move to be a part of.

There are a few select groups, like German Baptists (Old Conference) or Old Order Amish who don't do a lot of evangelical-style evangelism, or might do none at all, but that does not represent the majority of conservative Anabaptists.

A greater question is if this all this activity is particularly effective at creating disciples.
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Sudsy
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:I would daresay most conservative Anabaptists are active in evangelism. You can spend about as much free time as you want going to street meetings, cottage meetings, tract distribution, kids' clubs, or mission trips as you want to. And then there are mission-oriented church plants both within the Western world and outside of it you could move to be a part of.

There are a few select groups, like German Baptists (Old Conference) or Old Order Amish who don't do a lot of evangelical-style evangelism, or might do none at all, but that does not represent the majority of conservative Anabaptists.

A greater question is if this all this activity is particularly effective at creating disciples.
There must be a dozen or so types of Anabaptists where I live and yet I have not run across any of these out amongst the public evangelizing. Just which of these would be considered "conservative", I don't know. They all seem to stay within their ethnic group. I now attend a Mennonite Brethren church but I doubt they would be considered "conservative" and they are reaching people and the church is no longer of predominant Russian/German desent. We have many in our city that wear a unique Mennonite dress but I have never seen this dress style worn by folk of different nationalities so it would appear their evangelizing does not reach other nationalities where we live.

Our MB church has changed their name from Mennonite Brethren to Meadow Brook Fellowship to Meadow Brook Church. The feeling is that dropping the name "Mennonite" (even though still affiliated with the MB organization) draws more folks to check it out.

When it comes to making disciples, there can be quite a difference in what it means to be a disciple that is in the world but not of the world or what it means to be fishers of men. Here again I believe we should look carefully at what Jesus modelled if we are to make disciples that follow Him. I think most "cherry pick" what we teach to obey in discipleship training.
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cmbl
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Re: Highest calling?

Post by cmbl »

Sudsy wrote: There must be a dozen or so types of Anabaptists where I live and yet I have not run across any of these out amongst the public evangelizing.
Note that that doesn't mean that none of those groups evangelize.
We have many in our city that wear a unique Mennonite dress but I have never seen this dress style worn by folk of different nationalities so it would appear their evangelizing does not reach other nationalities where we live.
There are other possibilities. What is the ethnic makeup of the city? Their evangelism might reach other nationalities who either do not respond or respond by going to a church that does not practice CA dress.
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