Conformity or Persecution in the church

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Wade
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Wade »

I should mention: Living like that wasn't so bad - I mean I wouldn't choose it again - except if God called us to and we could be accepted.
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Josh
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Josh »

As I keep saying, that kind of circumstance would not be acceptable in any Mennonite church I have been part of. Loving the needy comes first. Teaching them to submit comes second.
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Josh
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Josh »

I'll be frank, I'm not terribly excited about a lot of Nationwide Fellowship churches. In my own home country all the members are not natives. Some families attend for years but never fit in.

They don't use Internet except with loopholes (1GB a month doesn't count), so they ask regular attendees to do stuff in the Internet for them. Yet they expect applicants for membership to completely refrain from Internet use.

They expect natives to forego government medical care (which is both free and mandatory) and also not to claim child tax deductions or credits. This would put many Australian families financially completely underwater. Since most of them are supported by home congregations they can't relate to the financial pressure a family with no ethnic Anabaptist support network would face.

I am concerned for a young sister who wants to be with a group that is, frankly, less worldly than the other Anabaptist options there. But I am concerned about the spiritual shipwreck awaiting being so focused in rules that don't even make sense nor are consistent, and then waiting year after year to be a member. I really wish they could strike a better balance.

The church in Australia flies in 50+ people for their annual conference to the tune of $2000 a person. That seems costly.

They also settled in very remote rural areas with almost no employment options outside of running a business. So it is not realistic for seekers to move unless they are wealthy enough to buy a farm or know how to run a business. Nearly all Aussies live in cities, yet the second church plant Nationwide did is 4 hours from Sydney. (The first one was 2 hours from Hobart.)

With that said the Nationwide folks where I live seem to be spiritually healthy and stable, and their ministry has good relations with my home church's ministers. (We also have good relations with the Wisler Conf. black car church as well.) A concern all of the ministers have is folks who drift in who seem to care about outward rules but want fewer rules than their old fellowship.

So some Nationwide churches are good and some aren't so good.
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lesterb
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by lesterb »

Josh wrote:I'll be frank, I'm not terribly excited about a lot of Nationwide Fellowship churches. In my own home country all the members are not natives. Some families attend for years but never fit in.

They don't use Internet except with loopholes (1GB a month doesn't count), so they ask regular attendees to do stuff in the Internet for them. Yet they expect applicants for membership to completely refrain from Internet use.

They expect natives to forego government medical care (which is both free and mandatory) and also not to claim child tax deductions or credits. This would put many Australian families financially completely underwater. Since most of them are supported by home congregations they can't relate to the financial pressure a family with no ethnic Anabaptist support network would face.

I am concerned for a young sister who wants to be with a group that is, frankly, less worldly than the other Anabaptist options there. But I am concerned about the spiritual shipwreck awaiting being so focused in rules that don't even make sense nor are consistent, and then waiting year after year to be a member. I really wish they could strike a better balance.

The church in Australia flies in 50+ people for their annual conference to the tune of $2000 a person. That seems costly.

They also settled in very remote rural areas with almost no employment options outside of running a business. So it is not realistic for seekers to move unless they are wealthy enough to buy a farm or know how to run a business. Nearly all Aussies live in cities, yet the second church plant Nationwide did is 4 hours from Sydney. (The first one was 2 hours from Hobart.)

With that said the Nationwide folks where I live seem to be spiritually healthy and stable, and their ministry has good relations with my home church's ministers. (We also have good relations with the Wisler Conf. black car church as well.) A concern all of the ministers have is folks who drift in who seem to care about outward rules but want fewer rules than their old fellowship.

So some Nationwide churches are good and some aren't so good.
Good summary, Josh. I've gotten about half of my support in the past 9 months from a NWF person, and he and his bishop are reviewing my writing. I have several other Nationwide reviewers. But that is the good side. I could give you other stories, but we've probably heard enough of those. Suffice to say that my own personal experiences make me believe what Wad is saying. But I also feel that many churches, including a number of NWF churches, would be different than that. It is really unfortunate that these things happen to people who really do want to serve the Lord.
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Josh
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Josh »

And of course there are some churches and some individual members with major problems in other fellowships - Beachy, Midwest, independent, CMC. And then there are some really, really wonderful churches and people in Beachy, Midwest, and elsewhere.

The advice I give seekers is to look for places where the members seem to really love each other, they really love the lost, they really love people in the world who don't deserve it, and they have a strong zeal to serve others and to live out the good news. If those things seem in place, then things like church rules, etc. will feel really minor in comparison.
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Sudsy
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote: The advice I give seekers is to look for places where the members seem to really love each other, they really love the lost, they really love people in the world who don't deserve it, and they have a strong zeal to serve others and to live out the good news. If those things seem in place, then things like church rules, etc. will feel really minor in comparison.
Good advice but hard to find, in my experience. Was part of a fellowship like this for a period of time (and it was wonderful) but then the focus by some, who seemed to just want to be around the activity, was not on the unsaved and instead was on judging one another's sanctification in a Pharisetical sense. When this was tolerated by the leaders, the little leven levened the lump. Satan has his ways to make the church ineffective and if we don't keep aware we are in spiritual warfare and put on the full armour of God, his firery darts will do their damage.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:And of course there are some churches and some individual members with major problems in other fellowships - Beachy, Midwest, independent, CMC. And then there are some really, really wonderful churches and people in Beachy, Midwest, and elsewhere.

The advice I give seekers is to look for places where the members seem to really love each other, they really love the lost, they really love people in the world who don't deserve it, and they have a strong zeal to serve others and to live out the good news. If those things seem in place, then things like church rules, etc. will feel really minor in comparison.
Rules applied with love are not really as much rules as they are promises.

J.M.
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