Conformity or Persecution in the church

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by RZehr »

Wade wrote:
RZehr wrote:I think Franklin is making the point that our choices, actions, etc., have an effect on others in our church.
And I agree that modern Christianity has imbibed too much from of American society. Modern Christianity seems to believe and promote the idea that all that matters is myself, and I shouldn't have to really conform or bend to anyone. Be and let be. This is exactly what our society says too, and I don't think this mindset is healthy or beneficial or really scriptural.

I do think church rules, or standards, are a good tool for disciplining ourselves both as individuals and the group. Society loves the idea of self discipline too, but hates the idea of someone else having a hand in it to the extent that they would rather do away with discipline. We are rebellious people.
The problem is - when we set these standards; are we willing to come down to peoples level and support others in it? Christ did.

Here is what I mean: Say the church has a stand against being part of something like a union. A revival sweeps through town and 20 men quit there job and come to your church. Are you willing to really step down and let your family suffer that those people now without jobs can support their families? What if they are truly converted and have huge debt to pay off, are you going to help them pay there bills? How about one family?...

The most frustrating thing you can do for any person is expect something from them while they don't have the resources, means, knowledge, skill, or whatever to do it...

When a newcomer hears stuff like this and they have actually forsaken all but are poor because of previous poor choices we are not looking for handouts but rather have made those choices through faith and cannot afford these standards most walk away and never return... Who is selfish then?

The newcomer didn't come because they wanted to change the standard or for it to be lessened or for handouts... What do both sides do then?

Should we make new church for the poor so the well off can be left alone?
We actually have a member that was part of a union and came with old debt.

I would like to see these twenty men find new jobs before quitting their union jobs. Our rule against union membership would not apply until these guys were serious about joining our church. Since we typically want to give time for ourselves to get to know these men, and give time for these men to get to know us before joining, they could use this time to find another job (I know, easier said that done in certain areas).

As far as debt goes, we would give money to assist in debt reduction, vehicles, housing, schooling, medical, etc. But only as part of a broad, transparent financial accountability, budgeting etc., with the deacons. We wouldn't be very quick to pay off the entire debt.

As far as spending money to comply with standards, this isn't very much money. We aren't looking for, or even hardly encourage complete compliance prior to membership. Most people get a plain suit. I don't know that it is required, but probably everyone has one.
Cars are another thing. If you are poor and are driving a new red Porche, then might as well sell it and buy something that is cheaper and fits in. Use the money to buy a suit or pay down debt or whatever.
If you are poor and are driving a serviceable decent vehicle that is in some way out of compliance, that is harder to justify selling. That might be handled on a case by case basis. We may say to use it until it wears out, because we want to focus on your finances.

I have never seen someone walk away because they could not afford compliance. In every case that I know of, the church helped them with money (with strings attached), or gave them a temporary pass. Most NMB people really want to comply. It is usually the MB that don't want to comply.

If these people are sincere, we consider phone, food, clothes, housing, transportation, medical, and for children schooling as necessary needs for living in todays society, and we are willing to meet these needs. But we will require you to work, and to be transparent with the deacons with your finances, and be willing to obey their financial advise. They aren't going to require you to never buy a soda, or never take a modest vacation. But they are stewards of the churchs money, and they sometimes are criticized for your actions.
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Wade
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Wade »

RZehr wrote:
Wade wrote:
RZehr wrote:I think Franklin is making the point that our choices, actions, etc., have an effect on others in our church.
And I agree that modern Christianity has imbibed too much from of American society. Modern Christianity seems to believe and promote the idea that all that matters is myself, and I shouldn't have to really conform or bend to anyone. Be and let be. This is exactly what our society says too, and I don't think this mindset is healthy or beneficial or really scriptural.

I do think church rules, or standards, are a good tool for disciplining ourselves both as individuals and the group. Society loves the idea of self discipline too, but hates the idea of someone else having a hand in it to the extent that they would rather do away with discipline. We are rebellious people.
The problem is - when we set these standards; are we willing to come down to peoples level and support others in it? Christ did.

Here is what I mean: Say the church has a stand against being part of something like a union. A revival sweeps through town and 20 men quit there job and come to your church. Are you willing to really step down and let your family suffer that those people now without jobs can support their families? What if they are truly converted and have huge debt to pay off, are you going to help them pay there bills? How about one family?...

The most frustrating thing you can do for any person is expect something from them while they don't have the resources, means, knowledge, skill, or whatever to do it...

When a newcomer hears stuff like this and they have actually forsaken all but are poor because of previous poor choices we are not looking for handouts but rather have made those choices through faith and cannot afford these standards most walk away and never return... Who is selfish then?

The newcomer didn't come because they wanted to change the standard or for it to be lessened or for handouts... What do both sides do then?

Should we make new church for the poor so the well off can be left alone?
We actually have a member that was part of a union and came with old debt.

I would like to see these twenty men find new jobs before quitting their union jobs. Our rule against union membership would not apply until these guys were serious about joining our church. Since we typically want to give time for ourselves to get to know these men, and give time for these men to get to know us before joining, they could use this time to find another job (I know, easier said that done in certain areas).

As far as debt goes, we would give money to assist in debt reduction, vehicles, housing, schooling, medical, etc. But only as part of a broad, transparent financial accountability, budgeting etc., with the deacons. We wouldn't be very quick to pay off the entire debt.

As far as spending money to comply with standards, this isn't very much money. We aren't looking for, or even hardly encourage complete compliance prior to membership. Most people get a plain suit. I don't know that it is required, but probably everyone has one.
Cars are another thing. If you are poor and are driving a new red Porche, then might as well sell it and buy something that is cheaper and fits in. Use the money to buy a suit or pay down debt or whatever.
If you are poor and are driving a serviceable decent vehicle that is in some way out of compliance, that is harder to justify selling. That might be handled on a case by case basis. We may say to use it until it wears out, because we want to focus on your finances.

I have never seen someone walk away because they could not afford compliance. In every case that I know of, the church helped them with money (with strings attached), or gave them a temporary pass. Most NMB people really want to comply. It is usually the MB that don't want to comply.

If these people are sincere, we consider phone, food, clothes, housing, transportation, medical, and for children schooling as necessary needs for living in todays society, and we are willing to meet these needs. But we will require you to work, and to be transparent with the deacons with your finances, and be willing to obey their financial advise. They aren't going to require you to never buy a soda, or never take a modest vacation. But they are stewards of the churchs money, and they sometimes are criticized for your actions.
This is wonderful if this happening, and I trust you are honest.

I guess where I struggle with understanding things is the reference to North American culture. You see the desicion for my wife to stay at home and for us to have more children than the rest of society, has also come with its sacrifices too.
We've been for the most part just trying to survive so things like church schooling were financially not an option for us. Nor did we think it would be a church requirement, and we weren't told it either. Until... our children started getting bothered by members children that we would not be allowed to become members unless they went to the church school. A second vehicle to transport them was not an option and I needed our one vehicle to get to work...
So we asked in instruction class without getting an answer. Finally members told us that that was true. And then the Bishop came and told us that all those attending need to send their children to go to the church school or else those children will never become Christians...

Well, every church in BC that I mentioned elsewhere requires children to be sent to the church school. If we cut back on our charitable giving and lowered our church offering I believe now we could finally afford a second vehicle and it would be nice for my wife. (Is that a North American mindset?)

But with our experience I believe it is unlikely that we as whole our family will ever feel completely comfortable with a church with such requirements, even if I would be.
And even if we go to a church that allows homeschooling we are just making it difficult for everybody else with even fitting in if we don't conform to the group. And since we did receive implied threats for not conforming, yes there are people who move away, not because they just couldn't afford the standards but rather because of abuse from the church when they couldn't.

We could move to another province again but we are a bit "gun shy."

But enough of this ridiculous nonsense, not sure why I bother, other than hoping to bring awareness to those heading into great discouragement...
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lesterb
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by lesterb »

Wade wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Wade wrote:
The problem is - when we set these standards; are we willing to come down to peoples level and support others in it? Christ did.

Here is what I mean: Say the church has a stand against being part of something like a union. A revival sweeps through town and 20 men quit there job and come to your church. Are you willing to really step down and let your family suffer that those people now without jobs can support their families? What if they are truly converted and have huge debt to pay off, are you going to help them pay there bills? How about one family?...

The most frustrating thing you can do for any person is expect something from them while they don't have the resources, means, knowledge, skill, or whatever to do it...

When a newcomer hears stuff like this and they have actually forsaken all but are poor because of previous poor choices we are not looking for handouts but rather have made those choices through faith and cannot afford these standards most walk away and never return... Who is selfish then?

The newcomer didn't come because they wanted to change the standard or for it to be lessened or for handouts... What do both sides do then?

Should we make new church for the poor so the well off can be left alone?
We actually have a member that was part of a union and came with old debt.

I would like to see these twenty men find new jobs before quitting their union jobs. Our rule against union membership would not apply until these guys were serious about joining our church. Since we typically want to give time for ourselves to get to know these men, and give time for these men to get to know us before joining, they could use this time to find another job (I know, easier said that done in certain areas).

As far as debt goes, we would give money to assist in debt reduction, vehicles, housing, schooling, medical, etc. But only as part of a broad, transparent financial accountability, budgeting etc., with the deacons. We wouldn't be very quick to pay off the entire debt.

As far as spending money to comply with standards, this isn't very much money. We aren't looking for, or even hardly encourage complete compliance prior to membership. Most people get a plain suit. I don't know that it is required, but probably everyone has one.
Cars are another thing. If you are poor and are driving a new red Porche, then might as well sell it and buy something that is cheaper and fits in. Use the money to buy a suit or pay down debt or whatever.
If you are poor and are driving a serviceable decent vehicle that is in some way out of compliance, that is harder to justify selling. That might be handled on a case by case basis. We may say to use it until it wears out, because we want to focus on your finances.

I have never seen someone walk away because they could not afford compliance. In every case that I know of, the church helped them with money (with strings attached), or gave them a temporary pass. Most NMB people really want to comply. It is usually the MB that don't want to comply.

If these people are sincere, we consider phone, food, clothes, housing, transportation, medical, and for children schooling as necessary needs for living in todays society, and we are willing to meet these needs. But we will require you to work, and to be transparent with the deacons with your finances, and be willing to obey their financial advise. They aren't going to require you to never buy a soda, or never take a modest vacation. But they are stewards of the churchs money, and they sometimes are criticized for your actions.
This is wonderful if this happening, and I trust you are honest....
I don't know every church in the country, but my opinion at this point is that more Conservative Churches would treat you like RZehr describes than like you were treated in Nova Scotia. Some wouldn't go as far as his church, perhaps, but most would be caring and helpful.

We are a bit careful about just giving out a lot of money, because people have abused it. I was involved in a situation where the church did pay for a family's bills, only to have the mother rack up another big batch of bills under the assumption that we would bail them out again. Instead, I was appointed to be their financial counselor and help them to live within their means. We went to the bank, and arranged a loan for them to consolidate their credit card bills. And I drew up a budget that was pretty tight, but would have enabled them to be debt free in five years (the longest term we could get from the bank). The husband would have made it work, but the wife just looked at it and shrugged it off, saying "we can't live off that." It was only when I looked at her and asked her where she thought that the extra money was going to come from, that she realized that we weren't just going to fork out money to bail them out again. And then she blew up. Wasn't a pretty sight.

I'm sure we didn't do everything right. But she was a compulsive buyer and played credit cards against each other without her husbands knowledge. She'd buy a new living room suite, then take it to a pawn shop less than a year later to make a credit card payment. I still can't figure out that he never caught on, but he didn't. Though their marriage almost ended the day that she took his computer to the pawn shop.

I'm comfortable with the process that RZehr described. I just wanted to explain why sometimes there is a bit of hesitation on the part of some people, and why they would ask for some accountability.
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RZehr
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by RZehr »

I'll add this.
We are a fairly large, old, established community with some decent sized business owners. I suspect - having never seen the church books - that the profits from these business are what makes it possible for our church & school to operate as it does. I don't know about a huge amount of individual self sacrificing going on in our church, and yet the financial needs seem to be met. This is why I think it is the business profits that are paying for everything from building, to medical, to schooling.

When our new church is started here shortly in a new community, I'm not sure what we will do without the deep pockets. But I imagine we will try to follow the same concept as much as we are able (willing?).

The modest vacation that I mentioned in the last post, would be something like an overnight or day trip to the coast (1.5 hr drive) for anniversary, or something special like that. These can get dicey.
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Wade
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Wade »

Your perspective Lester and RZher is appreciated.

I have seen enough in relatives of giving out money, to see it usually doesn't help.

And I would like add that the church in Nova Scotia did give us $500 twice to help us at least get to church which was a real blessing.

More to what I would like to point out is the feeling of not being accepted as brother in the church because of lack of finances. They could have giving me a million dollars, but it would have never been satisfying if yet we still would have not been accepted into the church. It was never really actually about the money at all...
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

RZehr wrote:
Wade wrote:
RZehr wrote:I think Franklin is making the point that our choices, actions, etc., have an effect on others in our church.
And I agree that modern Christianity has imbibed too much from of American society. Modern Christianity seems to believe and promote the idea that all that matters is myself, and I shouldn't have to really conform or bend to anyone. Be and let be. This is exactly what our society says too, and I don't think this mindset is healthy or beneficial or really scriptural.

I do think church rules, or standards, are a good tool for disciplining ourselves both as individuals and the group. Society loves the idea of self discipline too, but hates the idea of someone else having a hand in it to the extent that they would rather do away with discipline. We are rebellious people.
The problem is - when we set these standards; are we willing to come down to peoples level and support others in it? Christ did.

Here is what I mean: Say the church has a stand against being part of something like a union. A revival sweeps through town and 20 men quit there job and come to your church. Are you willing to really step down and let your family suffer that those people now without jobs can support their families? What if they are truly converted and have huge debt to pay off, are you going to help them pay there bills? How about one family?...

The most frustrating thing you can do for any person is expect something from them while they don't have the resources, means, knowledge, skill, or whatever to do it...

When a newcomer hears stuff like this and they have actually forsaken all but are poor because of previous poor choices we are not looking for handouts but rather have made those choices through faith and cannot afford these standards most walk away and never return... Who is selfish then?

The newcomer didn't come because they wanted to change the standard or for it to be lessened or for handouts... What do both sides do then?

Should we make new church for the poor so the well off can be left alone?
We actually have a member that was part of a union and came with old debt.

I would like to see these twenty men find new jobs before quitting their union jobs. Our rule against union membership would not apply until these guys were serious about joining our church. Since we typically want to give time for ourselves to get to know these men, and give time for these men to get to know us before joining, they could use this time to find another job (I know, easier said that done in certain areas).

As far as debt goes, we would give money to assist in debt reduction, vehicles, housing, schooling, medical, etc. But only as part of a broad, transparent financial accountability, budgeting etc., with the deacons. We wouldn't be very quick to pay off the entire debt.

As far as spending money to comply with standards, this isn't very much money. We aren't looking for, or even hardly encourage complete compliance prior to membership. Most people get a plain suit. I don't know that it is required, but probably everyone has one.
Cars are another thing. If you are poor and are driving a new red Porche, then might as well sell it and buy something that is cheaper and fits in. Use the money to buy a suit or pay down debt or whatever.
If you are poor and are driving a serviceable decent vehicle that is in some way out of compliance, that is harder to justify selling. That might be handled on a case by case basis. We may say to use it until it wears out, because we want to focus on your finances.

I have never seen someone walk away because they could not afford compliance. In every case that I know of, the church helped them with money (with strings attached), or gave them a temporary pass. Most NMB people really want to comply. It is usually the MB that don't want to comply.

If these people are sincere, we consider phone, food, clothes, housing, transportation, medical, and for children schooling as necessary needs for living in todays society, and we are willing to meet these needs. But we will require you to work, and to be transparent with the deacons with your finances, and be willing to obey their financial advise. They aren't going to require you to never buy a soda, or never take a modest vacation. But they are stewards of the churchs money, and they sometimes are criticized for your actions.
Some conferences don't totally exclude union membership, some moderate conferences only exclude "active" membership. This means you act as if the union does not exist, and continue working, don't vote in union elections, don't strike and don't go to their meetings. Down here in the states, it is quite easy to do.

In a moderate-conservative conference, the costs of compliance seems a whole lot lower.

J.M.
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

I think we need to be careful not to become like the Pharisees.
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Josh
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:Your perspective Lester and RZher is appreciated.

I have seen enough in relatives of giving out money, to see it usually doesn't help.

And I would like add that the church in Nova Scotia did give us $500 twice to help us at least get to church which was a real blessing.

More to what I would like to point out is the feeling of not being accepted as brother in the church because of lack of finances. They could have giving me a million dollars, but it would have never been satisfying if yet we still would have not been accepted into the church. It was never really actually about the money at all...
Wade, when I was at a fundamental-conservative Midwest Mennonite Fellowship church, I was flat out broke for months at a time. When I lost my job, a guy in the church let me come and work for him. And two other guys in the church also did their best to send some work my way too, one for unskilled masonry labourer type of work, the other needed some computer work done.

Another person attended regularly but lived a sinful lifestyle. Then he had a stroke and couldn't work anymore, and started taking spiritual things seriously. But now he didn't have any money either. Some of the ladies in the church helped him with groceries. Other people gave him small gifts of cash. One lady run into me in a coffee shop in town, and asked me if I had any ideas and asked me about directly paying his utilities bills. She knew he had a lot of cats and said she didn't want to just give cash which would go to cat food!

When I was at a moderately-conservative Beachy type of church, I was broke beyond absolute belief due to some circumstances that weren't my fault and due to taking some very poor advice from someone I should have known better than to listen to. I spent months unable to afford rent, food, or a car. During that time:

1. I lived in a shared house with the other single people. Sometimes I was by myself, sometimes I had a roommate or 3.

2. Someone always invited me over to eat, or sometimes would give me leftovers, etc. to help me cut down on grocery expenses.

3. Once I needed to go to the doctor and both the deacon and the minister were out of town. The ministers' two daughters were still home for another week, so I borrowed $50 from each of them and went to my doctors' appointment. (Neither of them were especially wealthy.) I asked my family for some money to pay for the visit which was $85 and then paid the girls back a week later. How that all happened meant a great deal to me.

4. It took me a few months to buy my own car. During this time, I drove the minister's pickup truck. But I was driving 1 to 2 hours to work each day, and that was costing a lot of fuel. Then he said I could borrow his daughter's little SUV, which she really liked. This was an inconvenience to her but she didn't mind helping.

5. Someone at the church worked for a car dealership and told me he'd keep an eye out for used cars coming in. Finally a car he felt was a great deal came in. He bought it from the dealership for me, and arranged necessary repairs to get it roadworthy. All in all it came to about $650. I borrowed the money to pay the registration, which was about $350, from my older brother. The fellow in church let me have the car. I paid him back a few months later.

Nowadays I am in a Holdeman church. My entry into this church has had some embarrassing moments. A month or so after I started attending, Once I was heading to someone's house, and my car broke down 5 miles away. I called him and explained my predicament. He drove out and picked me up.

One brother there has some spiritual concern for me now that I have a high paying job. He told me he was more comfortable when I was working as a labourer for a mason and to beware of the snare of a job that pays a lot of money and has a bit of prestige and a fair bit of travel. Before I took the job, he cautioned me to think very seriously if I am making the right decision.

My car has been in the shop or otherwise needed service a few times since then. Once I was in a rental car, a 2017 Dodge Charter R/T. Far from impressing other people with how great that is, I think I got a few looks questioning why I was driving such a late model car. (It's a very fast car, but it looks the same as as base model Charger.) The minister asked me why I was driving and I explained it was a weekend rental, booked for the same price as a standard car. (I used to rent a lot with one particular agency, so they will generally put me in the best car they have thanks to my history with them.)

Over in York at Tidings of Peace Christian School, nobody is turned away from the Christian school due to inability to pay. They are not even required to be church members. Faith Builders has a scholarship which asks a family to pay as low as $30.00/month, depending on income. (The maximum that school charges is $230.00/month.) The school does ask a family to put in 10 hours a month of finding ways to serve others if they are being helped that way.

Back at the Midwest Mennonite Fellowship & Beachy Amish school, families in need of financial assistance may apply for help. Annual tuition is less than $2,000/year, but it can add up with a big family. I am not aware of any families who have been turned away for inability to pay. Families who stop paying their tuition bills in the middle of the year, and never notify the school of financial issues, are the only ones who are not accepted the next year. The students are always allowed to finish out the school year.

I am not saying you did everything wrong, Wade, not at all, I am just trying to say that in my own life, I have seen Mennonite churches bend over backwards to help me--often when I did nothing to deserve it. I feel I have my own duty now to do what I can to help others in need.
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:More to what I would like to point out is the feeling of not being accepted as brother in the church because of lack of finances. They could have giving me a million dollars, but it would have never been satisfying if yet we still would have not been accepted into the church. It was never really actually about the money at all...
And that sounds like exactly the problem you faced at that church: lack of acceptance. I don't think that if you were a millionaire, you would have felt any more accepted.

But please consider this is a challenge a lot of NMB face. At least you have a family and a wife and can show up to church. Imagine how I feel--I could also choose to obsess over that and feel rejected. There isn't really much of a place for single people in many plain churches.

Likewise some people forget I'm divorced, like the Overholt brothers, who every time I see them encourage me to find a girl and ask her to get married. It hurts that they don't bother to get to know me enough first before telling me that, and also that they seem to forget every time. (I don't bother telling them anymore, I just nod and go along with it.)

But rather than be hurt by this, I can choose to realise that other single & divorced people will need a lot of encouragement. So now myself and a number of other single or divorced people stay in contact and have really been encouraging each other to stay strong, and also been encouraging each other to try to make our churches are warmer place for people who aren't married with families.
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Wade
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Re: Conformity or Persecution in the church

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:More to what I would like to point out is the feeling of not being accepted as brother in the church because of lack of finances. They could have giving me a million dollars, but it would have never been satisfying if yet we still would have not been accepted into the church. It was never really actually about the money at all...
And that sounds like exactly the problem you faced at that church: lack of acceptance. I don't think that if you were a millionaire, you would have felt any more accepted.

But please consider this is a challenge a lot of NMB face.
:up:

I still don't feel like I have given an accurate idea of perspective with this.

When we moved to Nova Scotia we brought little. Finances were very tight - $40 a week after bills were paid. We ended up renting a 1 bedroom 600 square foot home (with unfinished basement). We had 4 children and my wife was newly pregnant. I ended up walking 2 kilometers to get to work, no matter the weather. One blizzard I was actually one of two people that made it to work on time... :lol:

We were grateful if we could make it church at all with most of our $40/week going to food, and so we stepped out of instruction class with poor church attendance (faithful church attendance was the first standard.) - we would still listen in on the phone. There were times I went a couple days without food as my digestive issues didn't like the affordable food... We all were often sick.

We slept on the floor and ate sitting on the floor for about 3 months until someone at work offered some old furniture. That stinking old hide-a-bed was a blessing even if my back was still sore in the morning... It was nice to sit at a table for supper as a family again. :)

Meanwhile, I was the electrical superintendent of a sawmill; caring, and teaching 3 first year apprentices... I was averaging 75hours a week at work and also took on the responsibilities of Administrator, and Safety Committee President. I also was intern Maintenance Superintendent for some periods, as well as in charge of fixing the sorter and Hewsaw mechanically because the Millwrights were not having success.
It was not lack of effort that we were lacking finances but rather bad previous choices before following Christ. I blame no one for this but myself.

I took on a second job working with church members doing wiring on houses for a few days a month until I couldn't seem to find the time any longer. :roll: Some months I would get 1 day off others 2 or 3. I avoided working Sunday's as best as possible but since afternoon shift would start Sunday evening and I would often get called in for an "emergency," it was my responsibility to respond. I averaged 2 nights a week of calls in the middle of the night for something broke down...

We were offered rotten or bruised vegetables that wouldn't sell at the farmers market every so often that we would always accept - this was actually really helpful and our only source of fresh food.

This was taxing but finally a month before our baby was born we moved to a rat infested 3 bedroom house on 100 acres for less rent about 5 kilometers away from work(a church member loaned me a bike). (If you went in the attic in the daylight it was like stars at night... :lol: ) One of our houses we thought would sell sooner in BC final sold so we were up to about $230/week for money. We moved in July 1st and planted a 60 foot by 50 foot garden (approximately as it was actually L shaped) - the deacon tilled up a patch of lawn for us two days before we moved in. :D Praise God the garden seemed to explode and before the end of August most things were being eaten. :clap: A miracle from God that everything ripened so quickly... I stopped counting after 600 canning jars of various vegetables. We started instruction class again shortly after.

We didn't holiday but we did manage to drive about 1.5hrs to at least see the bay of Fundy, drove to the ocean by Pictou once, and went on the Heritage Hector replica ship over the time we were their. No soda's were bought. ;)

By the end of November after 13 months at the mill I quit and started working as a contractor for somebody else as I couldn't handle the Sunday calls any longer and the amount of work obviously cut into family time too. I worked alongside church members now and just worked 40 hours a week with half the pay... I took counsel before this decision with the blessing from a leader at church. Things were still really tight but church life and family life were balanced a lot better.

Even though we had faithful church attendance we still could not afford all the standards... When the lead minister brought up the church standards in instruction class he firmly told us that "the church statement of standards are the minimum requirements."

Baptism and church membership we could see were being delayed or rejected... :cry: I was not interested in persuading or making excuse - the deacon knew our situation and when I asked for counsel on finance and things he said we were handling things well.

When we started being told in various ways that we couldn't be members unless our children attended the church school we were surprised that this was not just told to us upfront. :? This came as a surprise to us and it hurt - like we had been deceived all along. (In one Anabaptist Voice magazine you can even see a member encouraging homeschooling at a homeschooling convention but yet they don't allow it???? :?: Why did they encourage us too?) It was out of the option for us financially to have a second vehicle so when they said our children could attend for free it felt more like someone giving you gas when your vehicle doesn't have spark plugs...

With knowing we couldn't afford these things and yet wanted to be joined to a local body - I know it wasn't right of me but I started to wonder if I should have not been putting cash into the church offering... :? :oops:

I had been working at trying to meet these standards and then sermons would be preached about the Christian life not being about getting ahead. But yet I could never meet the standards no matter how much I wanted to, unless I got ahead :!: ...

I liked the standards at this church but to me started to feel like a warped form of fundamentalism of putting God in a box - and He cannot fit in a box!

I never did get far enough ahead... And at the end of it all it didn't matter if we were living for Christ, if we had forsaken all, and if we were submissive to the church as we could afford. We could still not meet the requirements - Christs blood was not enough...

But the idea of Christs blood not being enough is completely WRONG - His sacrifice was enough. Grace does not come with money! Neither does faith cost a cent!

If they could have giving me a million dollars to conform perfectly to every detail - would that have been why they accepted me? If so and I consented then I would have been no different in believing some health and wealth gospel - I cannot accept that...

We never wanted money. We wanted to be part of a fellowship with other believers serving our Lord.

So where do we go with extra-biblical standards?

How about the constant advice to newcomers to submit?

I should mention: Living like that wasn't so bad - I mean I wouldn't choose it again - except if God called us to and we could be accepted.
Last edited by Wade on Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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