We actually have a member that was part of a union and came with old debt.Wade wrote:The problem is - when we set these standards; are we willing to come down to peoples level and support others in it? Christ did.RZehr wrote:I think Franklin is making the point that our choices, actions, etc., have an effect on others in our church.
And I agree that modern Christianity has imbibed too much from of American society. Modern Christianity seems to believe and promote the idea that all that matters is myself, and I shouldn't have to really conform or bend to anyone. Be and let be. This is exactly what our society says too, and I don't think this mindset is healthy or beneficial or really scriptural.
I do think church rules, or standards, are a good tool for disciplining ourselves both as individuals and the group. Society loves the idea of self discipline too, but hates the idea of someone else having a hand in it to the extent that they would rather do away with discipline. We are rebellious people.
Here is what I mean: Say the church has a stand against being part of something like a union. A revival sweeps through town and 20 men quit there job and come to your church. Are you willing to really step down and let your family suffer that those people now without jobs can support their families? What if they are truly converted and have huge debt to pay off, are you going to help them pay there bills? How about one family?...
The most frustrating thing you can do for any person is expect something from them while they don't have the resources, means, knowledge, skill, or whatever to do it...
When a newcomer hears stuff like this and they have actually forsaken all but are poor because of previous poor choices we are not looking for handouts but rather have made those choices through faith and cannot afford these standards most walk away and never return... Who is selfish then?
The newcomer didn't come because they wanted to change the standard or for it to be lessened or for handouts... What do both sides do then?
Should we make new church for the poor so the well off can be left alone?
I would like to see these twenty men find new jobs before quitting their union jobs. Our rule against union membership would not apply until these guys were serious about joining our church. Since we typically want to give time for ourselves to get to know these men, and give time for these men to get to know us before joining, they could use this time to find another job (I know, easier said that done in certain areas).
As far as debt goes, we would give money to assist in debt reduction, vehicles, housing, schooling, medical, etc. But only as part of a broad, transparent financial accountability, budgeting etc., with the deacons. We wouldn't be very quick to pay off the entire debt.
As far as spending money to comply with standards, this isn't very much money. We aren't looking for, or even hardly encourage complete compliance prior to membership. Most people get a plain suit. I don't know that it is required, but probably everyone has one.
Cars are another thing. If you are poor and are driving a new red Porche, then might as well sell it and buy something that is cheaper and fits in. Use the money to buy a suit or pay down debt or whatever.
If you are poor and are driving a serviceable decent vehicle that is in some way out of compliance, that is harder to justify selling. That might be handled on a case by case basis. We may say to use it until it wears out, because we want to focus on your finances.
I have never seen someone walk away because they could not afford compliance. In every case that I know of, the church helped them with money (with strings attached), or gave them a temporary pass. Most NMB people really want to comply. It is usually the MB that don't want to comply.
If these people are sincere, we consider phone, food, clothes, housing, transportation, medical, and for children schooling as necessary needs for living in todays society, and we are willing to meet these needs. But we will require you to work, and to be transparent with the deacons with your finances, and be willing to obey their financial advise. They aren't going to require you to never buy a soda, or never take a modest vacation. But they are stewards of the churchs money, and they sometimes are criticized for your actions.