Old German Baptist Brethren: OC & NC

[MaxPC]

It is my understanding that the issue given for the split was internet use, not computers per se. People who wished to remain with the OC were given a fixed period to stop using it. It apparently has not worked.

The actual resolution they had to agree to in order to remain was vaguely worded and I suspect that other issues were involved.

J.M.

Yes, this is probably what my minister meant..sorry, for me - a Computer, an Internet is kinda the same animal

Likewise. Thank you, JM, for that clarification. There is indeed a difference yet somehow I seem to always conflate the two.

[Judas Maccabeus]

It is my understanding that the issue given for the split was internet use, not computers per se. People who wished to remain with the OC were given a fixed period to stop using it. It apparently has not worked.

The actual resolution they had to agree to in order to remain was vaguely worded and I suspect that other issues were involved.

J.M.

Yes, this is probably what my minister meant..sorry, for me - a Computer, an Internet is kinda the same animal

Likewise. Thank you, JM, for that clarification. There is indeed a difference yet somehow I seem to always conflate the two.

Very conservative groups will use computers for bookkeeping, word processing, and even CAD/CAM applications. This is not seen as disruptive to community life. The internet is. I understand this position. Neto sets up "hobbled" computers that even old orders use.

J.M.

[Josh]

I used computers a long term before I used the Internet. I think I typed out my first words in 1985. I didn’t have direct TCP/IP to my desktop until 1996 or 1997. Computing did exist before the Internet.

I had some dial in host access in ’91 that in turn had “Internert” but very different than today. For starters, nothing like Google...

[Heirbyadoption]

I personally know and work with members of the OGBB(old conference) on a regular basis since more than five years before New Conference started. I know for a fact that they used computers back before the split and have continued using them. I also happen to know that computer use is sufficiently common among the OGBB(old conference) that there is a working group that is at least semi-officially recognized (I think it is actually officially recognized) that oversees a program to provide filtered email, file sharing, and a kind of private internet that is allowable for OGBB members.

It is my understanding that the issue given for the split was internet use, not computers per se. People who wished to remain with the OC were given a fixed period to stop using it. It apparently has not worked.
The actual resolution they had to agree to in order to remain was vaguely worded and I suspect that other issues were involved.
J.M.

For the sake of accurate discussion (and J.M.'s suspicion ), I might offer a couple observations for accuracy/context after reading the above comments. I honestly offer them without rancor, frank though some of it may be.

Having been at the OGBB Annual Meeting in 2009 (technically, the meeting was held on my dad's walnut ranch), and having been a participant in the process, I can tell you that the Wikipedia article on the subject is actually fairly accurate, lol. 8 queries were presented to the 2009 Standing Committee for presentation to the brotherhood for decisions, some from ultraconservative congregations and some from more moderate or progressive congregations; several of them addressing the growing diversity of practice and theology among the conference and some of them asking for greater implementation of ultraconservative practices and some of them asking for more charity for one another. Internet was but one point of contention, and had been for 15 years previous, but it was not the primary reason for the rejection of the 2009 Report (see below) by most of the NC brethren I have spoken with, then or since. Back to the Wikipedia article, I quote/paraphrase:

In 2009, a major division was a result of the rejection, by a large percentage of members (approximately 2,400 individuals),of an unprecedented committee report [7] adopted by the 2009 Annual Meeting held near Waterford, CA. The Report stated in part, "Members of the Old German Baptist Brethren Church in full fellowship and in good standing with the Church, believe and agree that the Old German Baptist Brethren’s interpretation of NT doctrine is scriptural and has been prompted by the Holy Spirit and it is their mind to remain in this fellowship and to teach, support and promote the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. It will be expected that members hearing the reading of this report will be willing to accept the same."

No positions on specific questions of doctrine or church practice before the Conference were addressed in the Report, though the general understanding was that it asked for an affirmation of loyalty to traditional doctrine and practice as understood by the more traditional/conservative arm of membership. Conference representatives were sent to each district (congregation) in the brotherhood to determine the willingness of each member to accept the Report. Those who refused to accept the Report gave their names, which were recorded and sent to the secretary of the standing committee for processing, and they were disfellowshipped (ie excommunicated). Members who refused to accept the Report were given 60 days to reconsider their decision without repercussion. Those who remained silent or did not attend the meetings were assumed to be in agreement or willing to submit to the decision, and were retained as members.

A majority of the members who did not accept the Report and were subsequently disfellowshipped participated in the re-organization of a new body, which was organized at a July 3, 2009, meeting in Troy, Ohio, called the Old German Baptist Brethren, New Conference. Several fundamental disagreements identified by the New Conference and adherents [8] included: allowing regular group Bible studies outside of the Sunday worship setting; permitting open outreach & mission efforts; use of email and the Internet; Scriptural application of church discipline as guided by Matthew 18; and preservation of the historical Brethren practice of "taking the voice" (or vote) of every member after a thorough discussion of each issue (reason: no discussion was permitted upon presentation of the 2009 Report, only a vote of affirmation was allowed, and no opportunity was given for any objections).

In short, while Internet usage WAS an ongoing point of contention and disagreement on what was permitted or not prior to 2009, it was very much a subordinate reason for the majority of those who objected and were disfellowshipped. Of greater fundamental concern (in addition to the concerns mentioned above) were issues like the inherent presumption (and sometimes outright teaching) that the decisions made at Annual Conference were unquestionably the mind of the Holy Spirit, in obvious contradiction to the realities of the politics and contentions which influenced or led to many of those decisions.

As to the issue of the Old Conference using computers and/or Internet nowadays, they have continued to wrangle over the subject of Internet usage since 2009, and the grassroots movement of brethren (the "Brethren Resource Group") who helped organize a 3rd party filtered system for use were eventually accepted (2015, maybe...?), allowing brethren to access static webpages upon approval by the system admin committee. However, on one hand there are those among them who have continued to object vehemently to any use or acceptance of this over the last few years and there is a small group (a few hundred, perhaps) scattered across WI, PA, OH, IN, KS, and CA (and perhaps a few elsewhere) currently in the process of considering separating from the main body over their insistence that the brotherhood should avoid such things altogether - as I understand it, they meet in November to consider their next steps. Per the larger group (the Old Conference, per se), however, while there has been a significant usage of the 3rd party / static webpage system, there is also still a considerable amount of underground internet usage by various members of their fellowship for everything from business to social media. How that develops and affects their next generation remains to be seen.

Anywho, just a few firsthand observations...

[Josh]

I should add the “third party static filter” really is not that - the vendor claims it is. It is really just a conventional Internet filter though. I consider this deceptive on the third party vendor’s part.

[MaxPC]

I personally know and work with members of the OGBB(old conference) on a regular basis since more than five years before New Conference started. I know for a fact that they used computers back before the split and have continued using them. I also happen to know that computer use is sufficiently common among the OGBB(old conference) that there is a working group that is at least semi-officially recognized (I think it is actually officially recognized) that oversees a program to provide filtered email, file sharing, and a kind of private internet that is allowable for OGBB members.

It is my understanding that the issue given for the split was internet use, not computers per se. People who wished to remain with the OC were given a fixed period to stop using it. It apparently has not worked.
The actual resolution they had to agree to in order to remain was vaguely worded and I suspect that other issues were involved.
J.M.

For the sake of accurate discussion (and J.M.'s suspicion ), I might offer a couple observations for accuracy/context after reading the above comments. I honestly offer them without rancor, frank though some of it may be.

Having been at the OGBB Annual Meeting in 2009 (technically, the meeting was held on my dad's walnut ranch), and having been a participant in the process, I can tell you that the Wikipedia article on the subject is actually fairly accurate, lol. 8 queries were presented to the 2009 Standing Committee for presentation to the brotherhood for decisions, some from ultraconservative congregations and some from more moderate or progressive congregations; several of them addressing the growing diversity of practice and theology among the conference and some of them asking for greater implementation of ultraconservative practices and some of them asking for more charity for one another. Internet was but one point of contention, and had been for 15 years previous, but it was not the primary reason for the rejection of the 2009 Report (see below) by most of the NC brethren I have spoken with, then or since. Back to the Wikipedia article, I quote/paraphrase:

In 2009, a major division was a result of the rejection, by a large percentage of members (approximately 2,400 individuals),of an unprecedented committee report [7] adopted by the 2009 Annual Meeting held near Waterford, CA. The Report stated in part, "Members of the Old German Baptist Brethren Church in full fellowship and in good standing with the Church, believe and agree that the Old German Baptist Brethren’s interpretation of NT doctrine is scriptural and has been prompted by the Holy Spirit and it is their mind to remain in this fellowship and to teach, support and promote the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. It will be expected that members hearing the reading of this report will be willing to accept the same."

No positions on specific questions of doctrine or church practice before the Conference were addressed in the Report, though the general understanding was that it asked for an affirmation of loyalty to traditional doctrine and practice as understood by the more traditional/conservative arm of membership. Conference representatives were sent to each district (congregation) in the brotherhood to determine the willingness of each member to accept the Report. Those who refused to accept the Report gave their names, which were recorded and sent to the secretary of the standing committee for processing, and they were disfellowshipped (ie excommunicated). Members who refused to accept the Report were given 60 days to reconsider their decision without repercussion. Those who remained silent or did not attend the meetings were assumed to be in agreement or willing to submit to the decision, and were retained as members.

A majority of the members who did not accept the Report and were subsequently disfellowshipped participated in the re-organization of a new body, which was organized at a July 3, 2009, meeting in Troy, Ohio, called the Old German Baptist Brethren, New Conference. Several fundamental disagreements identified by the New Conference and adherents [8] included: allowing regular group Bible studies outside of the Sunday worship setting; permitting open outreach & mission efforts; use of email and the Internet; Scriptural application of church discipline as guided by Matthew 18; and preservation of the historical Brethren practice of "taking the voice" (or vote) of every member after a thorough discussion of each issue (reason: no discussion was permitted upon presentation of the 2009 Report, only a vote of affirmation was allowed, and no opportunity was given for any objections).

In short, while Internet usage WAS an ongoing point of contention and disagreement on what was permitted or not prior to 2009, it was very much a subordinate reason for the majority of those who objected and were disfellowshipped. Of greater fundamental concern (in addition to the concerns mentioned above) were issues like the inherent presumption (and sometimes outright teaching) that the decisions made at Annual Conference were unquestionably the mind of the Holy Spirit, in obvious contradiction to the realities of the politics and contentions which influenced or led to many of those decisions.

As to the issue of the Old Conference using computers and/or Internet nowadays, they have continued to wrangle over the subject of Internet usage since 2009, and the grassroots movement of brethren (the "Brethren Resource Group") who helped organize a 3rd party filtered system for use were eventually accepted (2015, maybe...?), allowing brethren to access static webpages upon approval by the system admin committee. However, on one hand there are those among them who have continued to object vehemently to any use or acceptance of this over the last few years and there is a small group (a few hundred, perhaps) scattered across WI, PA, OH, IN, KS, and CA (and perhaps a few elsewhere) currently in the process of considering separating from the main body over their insistence that the brotherhood should avoid such things altogether - as I understand it, they meet in November to consider their next steps. Per the larger group (the Old Conference, per se), however, while there has been a significant usage of the 3rd party / static webpage system, there is also still a considerable amount of underground internet usage by various members of their fellowship for everything from business to social media. How that develops and affects their next generation remains to be seen.

Anywho, just a few firsthand observations...

Heir, thank you for this clarification. So the internet is a subordinate issue and as I understand this statement:
Of greater fundamental concern (in addition to the concerns mentioned above) were issues like the inherent presumption (and sometimes outright teaching) that the decisions made at Annual Conference were unquestionably the mind of the Holy Spirit, in obvious contradiction to the realities of the politics and contentions which influenced or led to many of those decisions.
that there is concern over the source and implementation of authority within the group?

[Judas Maccabeus]

I should add the “third party static filter” really is not that - the vendor claims it is. It is really just a conventional Internet filter though. I consider this deceptive on the third party vendor’s part.

Just what would be a “Third party static filter” be anyway?

J.M.

[Sister Su 2]

Today I had a great conversation about Brethren history and practices with my seamstress, who is a member of the OGBB, here being called OC. She mentioned to me that last year the smaller more conservative group did break off from them, over issues such as filtered internet use, locked smart phones etc. She recommended that I search up “Brethren Resource Group” to get more details, because she could not remember a lot of the exact information she wanted to share with me.

So far I have not found any information online about this “BRG,” but one page that did come up as a result of my search was this page!

I wonder, can any of you help me find a link to this BRG? She said there was a phone service through Verizon, and we did discuss benefits of having some type of Internet filter. I would appreciate if any of you Brethren could help me learn more about this. Thank you very much!

PS- I have seen a couple references to several different plain Brethren groups as “Old Order” groups. The only plain Brethren I know who refer to themselves as Old Order are the Old Order River Brethren in Pennsylvania, Iowa and West Virginia, and the Old Order German Baptist Brethren around Bradford and Versailles Ohio, who still drive buggies and don’t have electricity in their homes. I do have friends in all of these plain Brethren groups, and I am a member of one, the Old Brethren.

Personally, I would not call any group Old Order unless 1) they call themselves by this title, or 2) they still drive buggies &/or refrain to some degree from using electricity in their homes. Is there a reason to label us differently? If so, can you please explain why? Thank you!

[Heirbyadoption]

Today I had a great conversation about Brethren history and practices with my seamstress, who is a member of the OGBB, here being called OC. She mentioned to me that last year the smaller more conservative group did break off from them, over issues such as filtered internet use, locked smart phones etc. She recommended that I search up “Brethren Resource Group” to get more details, because she could not remember a lot of the exact information she wanted to share with me.

So far I have not found any information online about this “BRG,” but one page that did come up as a result of my search was this page!

I wonder, can any of you help me find a link to this BRG? She said there was a phone service through Verizon, and we did discuss benefits of having some type of Internet filter. I would appreciate if any of you Brethren could help me learn more about this. Thank you very much!

PS- I have seen a couple references to several different plain Brethren groups as “Old Order” groups. The only plain Brethren I know who refer to themselves as Old Order are the Old Order River Brethren in Pennsylvania, Iowa and West Virginia, and the Old Order German Baptist Brethren around Bradford and Versailles Ohio, who still drive buggies and don’t have electricity in their homes. I do have friends in all of these plain Brethren groups, and I am a member of one, the Old Brethren.

Personally, I would not call any group Old Order unless 1) they call themselves by this title, or 2) they still drive buggies &/or refrain to some degree from using electricity in their homes. Is there a reason to label us differently? If so, can you please explain why? Thank you!

Hi, Sister Su. The 3rd party "static internet filter" technology referred to above is a result of the BRG's work. You will not, however, find much if anything on the BRG by way of a website or group information, as they were simply a small group of Brethren (both laymen and officials) within the OGBB from a couple different states who started working together (in the late 2000s or early 2010s) on a grassroots level to find a way to alleviate the tension over the internet and other aspects of technology among their group by finding a technology that could allow for the business needs among them and yet satisfy most of those concerned about going to far with internet usage, etc. At some point they submitted their options to the conference and it was eventually formally accepted, to the dismay of the group which pulled off from them over the last year (for several different reasons, though opposition to any internet usage was certainly one of them).

As for Verizon, one of the laymen did landscape work for one of the VicePresidents of Verizon, who was instrumental in researching and starting them down the path of finding a limited "third party static filter" internet option. Without getting into too many specifics, the system they now use is referred to as the Private Garden; quite a few of them use it, although there continues to be a fair bit of internet usage (by some of their members) outside of the approved system, due to its rather significant limitations.

Just a thought on who is or isn't "Old Order", or how to accurately label them as such - it's a bit fluid, it seems, depending on who you ask and what criteria they use. The wikipedia article below might offer some links (such as Kraybill, Bowman, etc) to give a little more direction, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Order_Movement

[steve-in-kville]

Personally, I would not call any group Old Order unless 1) they call themselves by this title, or 2) they still drive buggies &/or refrain to some degree from using electricity in their homes. Is there a reason to label us differently? If so, can you please explain why? Thank you!

Are you familiar with the Bible Brethren? I'm not sure if they even exist anymore but they aligned themselves with GB's and the like.