Based on the grace thread, I thought we might want a thread to talk about eternal security versus conditional security (or as CA's like to call it, "unconditional eternal security" versus "conditional eternal security").
This is that thread.
Security
Security
0 x
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
- Josh
- Posts: 24103
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
- Location: 1000' ASL
- Affiliation: The church of God
Re: Security
Eternal security is bizarre.
Blatant, unrepentant sinners will be in the kingdom of heaven because they said the sinner's prayer once at a revival meeting when they were 12?
Blatant, unrepentant sinners will be in the kingdom of heaven because they said the sinner's prayer once at a revival meeting when they were 12?
0 x
-
- Posts: 9082
- Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
- Location: Former full time RVers
- Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
- Contact:
Re: Security
Great thread idea, cmbl.cmbl wrote:Based on the grace thread, I thought we might want a thread to talk about eternal security versus conditional security (or as CA's like to call it, "unconditional eternal security" versus "conditional eternal security").
This is that thread.
If I might ask for my own clarity:
Does this mean the same as it's "possible to lose our salvation" vs "salvation can't be lost no matter what we do"?
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Re: Security
Yeah, pretty much.MaxPC wrote: If I might ask for my own clarity:
Does this mean the same as it's "possible to lose our salvation" vs "salvation can't be lost no matter what we do"?
0 x
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
Re: Security
Agreed. Some eternal security proponents would basically say that. Other eternal security proponents would say if you fall away you were never really saved.Josh wrote:Eternal security is bizarre.
Blatant, unrepentant sinners will be in the kingdom of heaven because they said the sinner's prayer once at a revival meeting when they were 12?
I think it important to distinguish between the two viewpoints precisely because I am opposed to both of them. And I view the latter viewpoint as more of a threat than the former.
0 x
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
Re: Security
Absolutely it is possible to lose salvation. Hebrews chapter 6 clearly defines this in very good symbolic detail. The rest of the stuff about "security" is misunderstood and conflated.
We sin even though we are saved, thus we love Jesus and repent (repenting is a commandment and we keep his commandments) This is our security through his blood atonement. The security of SALVATION doesn't change for those who are faithful, not security because John Doe said "yes Jesus is my savior" when he was 8 once.
Hebrews 6 specifically talks about somebody who IS saved tasted of it and then rejects it. There is no hope if it was a real saving and a real rejection. They can't come back.
We sin even though we are saved, thus we love Jesus and repent (repenting is a commandment and we keep his commandments) This is our security through his blood atonement. The security of SALVATION doesn't change for those who are faithful, not security because John Doe said "yes Jesus is my savior" when he was 8 once.
Hebrews 6 specifically talks about somebody who IS saved tasted of it and then rejects it. There is no hope if it was a real saving and a real rejection. They can't come back.
0 x
-
- Posts: 1015
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm
- Affiliation: Brethren
Re: Security
I've never understood how you could fall away from somewhere or something if you hadn't first gotten there...Some eternal security proponents would basically say that. Other eternal security proponents would say if you fall away you were never really saved.
Also, I would humbly suggest that we can "forfeit" or "reject" salvation, not "lose" it. There is a significant difference between the terms, and it has led to a lack of assurance and resulting gross legalism in many, many plain churches.
0 x
-
- Posts: 5312
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
- Location: Medina OH
- Affiliation: non-denominational
Re: Security
There are many passages in New Testament that lead one to realize that you can lose your salvation-
I know the founder of Mission to Amish People, a former Amish man- believes in eternal security (once saved always saved) and has stated if one falls away, then they were not saved to begin with. One of the reasons he left the Amish for another denomination- we discussed this with him on his own discussion forum but his denomination stands on this particular passage:
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
Besides the passages & examples of those who left the faith for the world or whose faith was shipwrecked- or the statements by Jesus "he who endures till the end, the same shall be saved"- we see that one's name is subject to be blotted out from the Book of Life:
Revelations 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
I know the founder of Mission to Amish People, a former Amish man- believes in eternal security (once saved always saved) and has stated if one falls away, then they were not saved to begin with. One of the reasons he left the Amish for another denomination- we discussed this with him on his own discussion forum but his denomination stands on this particular passage:
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
Besides the passages & examples of those who left the faith for the world or whose faith was shipwrecked- or the statements by Jesus "he who endures till the end, the same shall be saved"- we see that one's name is subject to be blotted out from the Book of Life:
Revelations 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
0 x
Re: Security
Yeah. Hebrews 6, 2 Peter 2, and 1 Corinthians 10 are pretty clear here.Heirbyadoption wrote:I've never understood how you could fall away from somewhere or something if you hadn't first gotten there...Some eternal security proponents would basically say that. Other eternal security proponents would say if you fall away you were never really saved.
Those are my preferred terms as well.Also, I would humbly suggest that we can "forfeit" or "reject" salvation, not "lose" it. There is a significant difference between the terms, and it has led to a lack of assurance and resulting gross legalism in many, many plain churches.
0 x
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."