Security

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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cmbl
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Security

Post by cmbl »

Based on the grace thread, I thought we might want a thread to talk about eternal security versus conditional security (or as CA's like to call it, "unconditional eternal security" versus "conditional eternal security").

This is that thread.
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Josh
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Re: Security

Post by Josh »

Eternal security is bizarre.

Blatant, unrepentant sinners will be in the kingdom of heaven because they said the sinner's prayer once at a revival meeting when they were 12?
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MaxPC
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Re: Security

Post by MaxPC »

cmbl wrote:Based on the grace thread, I thought we might want a thread to talk about eternal security versus conditional security (or as CA's like to call it, "unconditional eternal security" versus "conditional eternal security").

This is that thread.
Great thread idea, cmbl.

If I might ask for my own clarity:
Does this mean the same as it's "possible to lose our salvation" vs "salvation can't be lost no matter what we do"?
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cmbl
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Re: Security

Post by cmbl »

MaxPC wrote: If I might ask for my own clarity:
Does this mean the same as it's "possible to lose our salvation" vs "salvation can't be lost no matter what we do"?
Yeah, pretty much.
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cmbl
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Re: Security

Post by cmbl »

Josh wrote:Eternal security is bizarre.

Blatant, unrepentant sinners will be in the kingdom of heaven because they said the sinner's prayer once at a revival meeting when they were 12?
Agreed. Some eternal security proponents would basically say that. Other eternal security proponents would say if you fall away you were never really saved.

I think it important to distinguish between the two viewpoints precisely because I am opposed to both of them. And I view the latter viewpoint as more of a threat than the former.
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Chris
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Re: Security

Post by Chris »

Absolutely it is possible to lose salvation. Hebrews chapter 6 clearly defines this in very good symbolic detail. The rest of the stuff about "security" is misunderstood and conflated.

We sin even though we are saved, thus we love Jesus and repent (repenting is a commandment and we keep his commandments) This is our security through his blood atonement. The security of SALVATION doesn't change for those who are faithful, not security because John Doe said "yes Jesus is my savior" when he was 8 once.

Hebrews 6 specifically talks about somebody who IS saved tasted of it and then rejects it. There is no hope if it was a real saving and a real rejection. They can't come back.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Security

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Some eternal security proponents would basically say that. Other eternal security proponents would say if you fall away you were never really saved.
I've never understood how you could fall away from somewhere or something if you hadn't first gotten there... 8-)

Also, I would humbly suggest that we can "forfeit" or "reject" salvation, not "lose" it. There is a significant difference between the terms, and it has led to a lack of assurance and resulting gross legalism in many, many plain churches.
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Valerie
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Re: Security

Post by Valerie »

There are many passages in New Testament that lead one to realize that you can lose your salvation-
I know the founder of Mission to Amish People, a former Amish man- believes in eternal security (once saved always saved) and has stated if one falls away, then they were not saved to begin with. One of the reasons he left the Amish for another denomination- we discussed this with him on his own discussion forum but his denomination stands on this particular passage:
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise

Besides the passages & examples of those who left the faith for the world or whose faith was shipwrecked- or the statements by Jesus "he who endures till the end, the same shall be saved"- we see that one's name is subject to be blotted out from the Book of Life:

Revelations 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
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cmbl
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Re: Security

Post by cmbl »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
Some eternal security proponents would basically say that. Other eternal security proponents would say if you fall away you were never really saved.
I've never understood how you could fall away from somewhere or something if you hadn't first gotten there... 8-)
Yeah. Hebrews 6, 2 Peter 2, and 1 Corinthians 10 are pretty clear here.
Also, I would humbly suggest that we can "forfeit" or "reject" salvation, not "lose" it. There is a significant difference between the terms, and it has led to a lack of assurance and resulting gross legalism in many, many plain churches.
Those are my preferred terms as well.
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